Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is a program designed
to bring you up to speed
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and peek your interest
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on religious liberty
developments in the US
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and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine,
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and my guest on this program.
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Welcome. Welcome.
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Charles Steinberg, lawyer
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and vice
president of the Northwest
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Religious Liberty Association.
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Thank you for
having me on the show.
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And a religious liberty activist
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and man of ideas par excellence.
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Right, that's the set up
because I want you to wade in
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and I'll join you
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and let's do a little amateur,
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no I'm not
amateur, I'm a professional
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and I'm paid to do something,
edit Liberty Magazine.
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But let's talk about
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religious liberty in
the United States today,
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the State of the Union?
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Yeah.
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It's easy to say
that the United States
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and I originally came
from Australia, you know,
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religious freedom there
and then you look at Iraq
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or Saudi Arabia or somewhere
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and it's palpably restrictive.
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Is it that simple?
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It's very restrictive.
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In some of these
countries founding documents,
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you can see that
they'll guarantee in words,
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they will guarantee freedom
of religion for their citizens
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but in practice, if
you think different than
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what the government is saying,
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you're gonna end
up on some glue log
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just for your religious beliefs.
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Absolutely.
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Or if you're running
a home church in China,
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you could end up
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with being sent to
a reeducation camp,
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leaving your family
destitute for years,
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but they guarantee
freedom of religion,
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it's in their constitution.
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And you know,
you mentioned China
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the huge injustice
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that's been going on
for some years in China now
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was sort of a
homegrown exercise group,
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though fallen and gone.
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Yes.
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Where people were
gathering in parks to basically,
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you know,
shadowbox and all the rest,
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and the government saw
this is an improper gathering
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and then maybe they
had ideas of the world
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and of how society
should be organized
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that were in
competition with them.
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So they've gone,
gone after those people
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with all of the
vengeance and vehemence
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that you'd
reserve for mortal enemy,
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it's not even quite a religion.
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But one of the problems
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that people will
perceive a threat to government
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is the individual free thinker
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that influences
others that can almost,
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that can then
instantly become a threat
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to the status quo.
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Well and that's the role
that religion often fulfills
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in opposition to a
totalitarian system
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and there's no question
that in the Soviet Union
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that's what
bothered them about religion.
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Philosophically, they
thought religion you know,
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was it Karl Marx, the
opinion of the people.
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In other words,
just dull their minds
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and took their
minds of the real stuff
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of forming a modern society.
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So on one level they
didn't care about religion
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but the activity,
religious activity
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when they noticed
that was seen as a threat
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so in the Soviet Union,
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even though the constitution
guaranteed freedom of religion,
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and most times
they were happy enough
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to provide a place for
the old people to meet,
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figuring that
they'll tire of it,
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die off and we
train the young people.
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In practice, in
spite of the Constitution,
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in spite of the
fact that religion was
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no open threat to
communism, you're right,
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you end up in
the gulag very often.
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You end up being persecuted,
your family left destitute.
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And it's worth thinking
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and I want to get your feedback,
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The United States
has been a bulwark
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and a beacon
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for religious
freedom for a long time
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for many people.
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Constitution protects it.
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But is it possible
that we could join,
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as I written
recently joined the 70% Club.
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So if you consider the 70%
Club or 70% of the countries
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in the world that
don't have religious freedom,
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or they get lip
service too late.
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Forum defines them as countries
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where there are
severe restrictions
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on religious freedom.
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And so the
question is, do you think
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or you're wondering if
I think that United States
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could eventually join that club.
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It might be in the process.
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Well, it might be
in the process now.
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Well, I'm an optimist.
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I'm not quite Pollyanna
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for those of you
don't remember Pollyanna,
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this is very optimistic person
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and that was able to
get some lady creature,
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a woman to out of
her shell basically,
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movie from the 60s
I believe but anyway.
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Lovely maybe.
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Yes, anyway.
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Take me back to when
I was very, very young.
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So Washington,
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the United States were
made up of numerous people
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and our power is spread out,
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which is what the
founding fathers envisioned.
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We were gonna have an executive,
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we're gonna have a
legislative branch,
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we're gonna have
a judicial branch.
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And John Marshall said,
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"Well, we the judiciary
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are gonna be the
ultimate arbiters
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of what the Constitution means."
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Now, what a lot of
laypeople don't know, Lincoln,
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and I didn't know this myself
until I was an undergraduate,
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is that not only does
the United States have
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its own
Constitution and Bill of Rights,
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which is supposed
to limit the powers
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of the federal government.
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That was more than limiting,
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it's only the powers
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and they only supposed to
have the powers enumerated.
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Yes.
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So there are also
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50 different state
constitutions as well
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that have similar protections
for religious liberty,
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and some states have
greater levels of protection
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in the federal government.
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Other states have
less level of protection.
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I was reading an
article while traveling
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and they said they
had DUI checkpoints
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in one of our
states and you know,
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getting drunk drivers off
the road is a great thing to do
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for safety of the community,
but in Washington state
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we have a
greater protective search
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and seizure law
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and our Supreme Court
ruled that random checkpoints
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is kind of like a
harbinger of Germany,
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where your papers please,
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are unconstitutional
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under the
Washington Constitution.
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I am taking a long way
to answer your question,
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but I will get
to the answer here.
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Well, did I throw in my views?
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I think it's an evidence
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that we're still living
in a very post Civil War era.
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Before the Civil War,
the states had large power
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and the federal power really
only related largely to defense
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and interrelationship
between the states.
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Since the Civil War,
the federal government
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is assumed most of the powers
that the states used to reserve
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to themselves,
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not all the
states have given it up
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and there's still
an ongoing tension
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which I think is
a little unnatural,
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because it
hasn't really got a...
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Well, it was not a
model from the beginning.
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It's a byproduct
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what we have
today of the Civil War.
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Well, we learned through
the court system that Arizona,
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the state of Arizona
doesn't have the power
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to enforce immigration laws.
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We learned that
in a recent case.
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We also might
learn whether or not
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the state of
California has the ability
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to change their
air pollution laws
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and in the northwest
state of Washington said,
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you know, we're going to pile on
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and go against the
Trump administration
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on that.
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But I'll give you one example
that came up in a meeting
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just a couple of days ago
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before I came here to
do this program with you.
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A lawyer that you and
I know very well got up
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and was presenting to the
group about religious liberty
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and he spoke about
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the Religious
Freedom Restoration Act.
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RFRA.
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Great act, right?
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And without any
comment to a group
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that doesn't know any better,
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he said and the Supreme Court
declared it unconstitutional,
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like what a knock
against religious freedom
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and you know very well,
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the reason they
declared it unconstitutional,
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nothing to do with the merits
of its protection of religion.
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It was a legislative attempt
to have the federal government
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impose this on the
states under the guise
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or under the rubric
of interstate commerce.
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Yes, yeah.
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Well, as a layperson,
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I can see that that's overreach.
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That's a stretch.
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You know,
there's a high watermark
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in the Constitutional
Commerce Clause Legislation
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or Constitutional
Commerce Clause cases
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and a low watermark.
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The high watermark
for the Commerce Clause
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was that the federal
government during a time of war
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could say how much corn,
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a corn farmer
could grow on his farm
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and I think it was
Kentucky or Tennessee.
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But the low watermark is,
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it means
everything affects commerce,
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if you can make that argument.
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Yeah. And then there is a...
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It's against the
spirit of the law.
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Yeah, in Montana,
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there's a firearms manufacturer,
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that meant he's in the state
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of Montana firearms manufacturer
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only sells them in state
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and he's not thinking
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he's going to run
afoul of that law,
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but there's a
tension and a flex.
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In answering your question,
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I don't think the United
States will join the 70%.
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To the person whose
thumb is being persecuted,
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either they're
being a federal employee
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and they're being persecuted
because of their faith
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or if it's a program
that didn't get grant money
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and I'm not gonna call
it grant money anymore.
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I'm gonna call
it taxpayers' money
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'cause that's really what it is.
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Anyway, if it's a group that
didn't get their grant money
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because of their
religious beliefs,
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that does have some
element of the persecution
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that goes on in the
70%, but it's not the...
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We're gonna send you to prison
and sent for you in that case.
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No, in that
regard, I agree we're not,
00:10:05.83\00:10:07.84
we're not at all close.
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I mean, in
Cuba, Alexander Noble,
00:10:09.87\00:10:12.27
who's a
Seventh-day Adventist pastor
00:10:12.31\00:10:14.28
thrown in jail for
being a youth pastor
00:10:14.31\00:10:17.95
and his charge was...
00:10:17.98\00:10:19.31
I remember his story very well.
00:10:19.35\00:10:20.68
Selling drugs and
even when he was in prison,
00:10:20.72\00:10:23.25
he was still continuing to
do what God called him to do,
00:10:23.28\00:10:26.49
which was to
teach people about God
00:10:26.52\00:10:28.52
and to teach people to
turn their life around.
00:10:28.56\00:10:30.59
But let me get back to one
of the extreme 70% countries.
00:10:30.63\00:10:34.36
Okay. Saudi Arabia.
00:10:34.40\00:10:37.43
In fact, I'm not sure
that they make any pretense
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of religious liberty
there because it's a...
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Women were able to
drive just last year
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I think in Saudi Arabia.
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Which isn't a
religious issue per se,
00:10:47.81\00:10:50.55
although the attitude
derives from their religion,
00:10:50.58\00:10:53.25
but it's the civil rights.
00:10:53.28\00:10:56.18
You know, if you told your wife,
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she couldn't drive anymore.
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Do you think she'd be
agitating against you?
00:11:00.29\00:11:02.42
Then it would be a matter
of a domestic violence case.
00:11:02.46\00:11:06.39
But she would go to her
allies or natural allies
00:11:06.43\00:11:08.60
or probably other
women in the church,
00:11:08.63\00:11:10.87
her natural
allies or other folks
00:11:10.90\00:11:13.84
that she's friends with
00:11:13.87\00:11:15.20
and there would be a revolution.
00:11:15.24\00:11:17.04
Yeah, but let's
get to Saudi Arabia.
00:11:17.07\00:11:19.81
Everybody is
Islamic, citizens are Muslims.
00:11:19.84\00:11:24.45
There's a slight split
between Sunni and Shia.
00:11:24.48\00:11:27.48
Shias are extreme minority
and they are persecuted there
00:11:27.52\00:11:31.42
but...
00:11:31.45\00:11:34.36
they're Muslim.
00:11:34.39\00:11:36.79
If you're a Shia, I
already mentioned that,
00:11:36.83\00:11:39.43
you're gonna be
punished in many ways
00:11:39.46\00:11:42.63
including being
hung from a crane.
00:11:42.66\00:11:45.63
They hung the top imam
00:11:45.67\00:11:49.57
recently as a object lesson
00:11:49.60\00:11:52.74
to the Shias not to
challenge the Sunni majority.
00:11:52.77\00:11:56.91
But there's no other
religions to speak of
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because the penalty
00:11:59.45\00:12:00.78
against changing
your religion is death.
00:12:00.82\00:12:02.82
Death penalty.
00:12:02.85\00:12:04.19
So there's not a lot
of changing religion.
00:12:04.22\00:12:07.19
Now our church
periodically talks about
00:12:07.22\00:12:09.52
Adventist church
meeting in Riyadh and so on.
00:12:09.56\00:12:11.89
Those are foreign
workers, expatriates, visitors,
00:12:11.93\00:12:15.20
and so on.
00:12:15.23\00:12:16.56
There's an element of
that, but within strict limits,
00:12:16.60\00:12:19.30
so you ask the typical
Saudi, they have no problem,
00:12:19.33\00:12:23.47
they're practicing
their faith just fine.
00:12:23.51\00:12:24.84
They got great religious freedom
00:12:24.87\00:12:26.21
'cause the majority rules.
00:12:26.24\00:12:27.58
In fact, I'll give the
example that I heard years
00:12:27.61\00:12:29.31
and years ago, had
an interview with the...
00:12:29.34\00:12:31.48
And I have
mentioned on this program,
00:12:31.51\00:12:33.25
the interview with
the foreign minister
00:12:33.28\00:12:35.38
of the Maldives
on BBC and he was,
00:12:35.42\00:12:38.32
he painted a wonderful
picture of that paradise
00:12:38.35\00:12:40.69
and I'm sure it is,
it's in tropical area.
00:12:40.72\00:12:43.39
And he said how free
it was and all the rest.
00:12:43.43\00:12:46.19
And the interviewer said
00:12:46.23\00:12:50.43
and the guy said as part
of that religious freedom
00:12:50.47\00:12:52.93
he says "It's
not really an issue
00:12:52.97\00:12:54.57
since pretty much
100% Muslim community."
00:12:54.60\00:12:58.14
And the interviewer
said, "Now I'm a Christian.
00:12:58.17\00:13:01.64
If I came to the Maldives,
00:13:01.68\00:13:03.55
would I be allowed
there to practice my faith."
00:13:03.58\00:13:05.98
And I still
remember his reaction.
00:13:06.01\00:13:07.42
He was affronted. He
says, "Absolutely not."
00:13:07.45\00:13:10.12
He says we might as well invite
al Qaeda into our country.
00:13:10.15\00:13:13.19
Yeah, well, it's
a perceived threat,
00:13:13.22\00:13:15.66
a different idea.
00:13:15.69\00:13:17.03
So it isn't really
00:13:17.06\00:13:20.06
how many people are in the gulag
00:13:20.10\00:13:21.96
or whatever or how
active of persecution,
00:13:22.00\00:13:24.73
it's defined by the minority
00:13:24.77\00:13:28.20
and what would await
them if they challenged it.
00:13:28.24\00:13:32.01
Now the United States
at the moment by my lights
00:13:32.04\00:13:35.78
is defending the
principle of religious freedom
00:13:35.81\00:13:39.65
very strongly.
00:13:39.68\00:13:41.08
This present
administration, I'm not sure.
00:13:41.12\00:13:43.85
We're trying to.
00:13:43.89\00:13:45.49
There's a lot of talk
but within the country,
00:13:45.52\00:13:48.42
there's edicts
and executive orders
00:13:48.46\00:13:50.89
and we quote them in
liberty, wonderful state.
00:13:50.93\00:13:53.40
We're battling
for religious freedom.
00:13:53.43\00:13:54.76
Right and we bring the,
00:13:54.80\00:13:56.36
what you think of
the around the world
00:13:56.40\00:13:58.27
is it bringing
in the ministerial
00:13:58.30\00:13:59.70
for ministers of religion
00:13:59.73\00:14:01.07
and government ministers
00:14:01.10\00:14:02.44
to talk about religious freedom.
00:14:02.47\00:14:04.54
But it's sort of self evident
if people think about it,
00:14:04.57\00:14:07.78
that there's an
unprecedented move
00:14:07.81\00:14:09.54
against the sensibility
00:14:09.58\00:14:11.98
and freedom of movement
00:14:12.01\00:14:13.42
and everything that
goes with it for Muslims
00:14:13.45\00:14:17.32
and immigrants
from other countries.
00:14:17.35\00:14:20.72
They've been marginalized.
00:14:20.76\00:14:22.56
Well.
00:14:22.59\00:14:23.93
And Islam in particular,
00:14:23.96\00:14:26.83
it's just a
function of since 911,
00:14:26.86\00:14:29.23
there's a perceived
threat to everything
00:14:29.26\00:14:30.97
the West stands for.
00:14:31.00\00:14:32.33
So it's not the diligence
00:14:32.37\00:14:35.40
of the administration
to fight for their freedom.
00:14:35.44\00:14:39.44
But yet there's lots of
talk about religious liberty.
00:14:39.47\00:14:41.31
What I call it is
religious entitlement.
00:14:41.34\00:14:44.61
Greater prerogative
00:14:44.65\00:14:47.12
and, you know,
00:14:47.15\00:14:50.35
joining even government
forces with what they see
00:14:50.39\00:14:53.02
is a safe American
religion but on the periphery,
00:14:53.05\00:14:56.73
I think some
people are losing out.
00:14:56.76\00:14:59.76
We need to take
a break right now,
00:14:59.79\00:15:01.76
we'll be back
to continue this...
00:15:01.80\00:15:07.24
not contentious,
but I can tell that
00:15:07.27\00:15:09.00
I'm gonna have a
bounce back from my guest.
00:15:09.04\00:15:11.31
So we'll
continue this discussion.
00:15:11.34\00:15:12.84
Stay with us.
00:15:12.87\00:15:14.21