Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI190445B
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00:03 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:05 Before the break with guest Charles Steinberg 00:09 we were going through some of the exciting battles 00:12 and victories 00:13 that the Northwest Religious Liberty Association 00:15 is carried on, 00:17 and you've been a big part of that 00:18 for quite a few years. 00:20 Where else can we pick it up? 00:22 What are some of the other exciting moments 00:25 for your activities? 00:26 We can pick it up a couple areas, 00:28 both into Inmates Rights. 00:30 You know, in the Bible, it says, 00:32 "I was hungry, you gave me something to eat. 00:34 I was in jail and you visited me." 00:36 So there was a fellow, 00:39 he was a fellow inmate 00:42 in Washington Correctional Institution. 00:44 He was in for murder. 00:45 His name is Joe Macomb. 00:46 And Joe Macomb is Native American 00:49 by birth and by culture. 00:51 I remember this case. Yeah. 00:53 And Joe Macomb wanted to participate in Bible studies 00:58 with the Seventh-day Adventist and other Christian groups. 01:02 Now in a prison situation, 01:04 the government has a compelling interest 01:06 in making sure there's order in the prison. 01:08 And Joe Macomb contacted our office. 01:11 And he said he's not allowed to have Bible studies 01:14 with Christians because he's a Native American. 01:17 So it was the right says 01:19 for data for American traditional practices, 01:22 coming at odds with Christian religious accommodation, 01:25 wasn't that? 01:26 Yes. 01:28 In the State of Washington... 01:29 And they were trying to deny you can have one 01:31 or the other but not both. 01:32 The State of Washington 01:33 when you go into a prison system, 01:35 you have a piece of paper, you check the box. 01:37 What is your religious preference? 01:39 Native American, Protestant, Baptist, Jewish, Muslim, 01:44 and it was to the exclusion of the others 01:46 how the rules interpreted. 01:48 And Chaplain Tom Sasse, 01:51 a very ardent Catholic man, chaplain, 01:54 had a very firm belief that Native Americans 01:56 could not fellowship with Christians. 02:00 Because Native Americans only worship spirit animals 02:03 and only worship spirits. 02:05 And so Chaplain Sasse took away 02:09 Mr. Macomb's Bible, 02:11 took away a cross, 02:12 that he had gone through a bunch of Bible studies 02:14 with the statement scrolls. 02:15 It's a bizarre situation. They took away his cross. 02:18 And at the deposition, that the State of Washington 02:21 and the Seventh-day Adventist Church General Counsel took, 02:25 they learned that Chaplain Sasse 02:27 had all these prejudices against Native Americans 02:30 that wanted a dual religion status. 02:33 And the Deputy Attorney General that was listening on the case, 02:38 basically, once you heard the deposition, 02:40 the sworn evidence, 02:42 we're going to go ahead and change 02:44 this administrative rule in the state of Washington. 02:47 It'll take a while for us to do that. 02:48 But we're going to change the law 02:50 for the benefit of all... 02:51 And that's the best sort of case to have 02:53 not just to win that case, 02:55 but to write the result large for other people. 02:58 But again, it was application of a law 03:01 that had a lot of broad support 03:03 that was signed by President Clinton 03:05 on the Religious Land Use 03:07 and Institutionalized Persons Act. 03:10 It was a great victory. 03:11 And I learned later from Monte Church 03:13 that it became a template 03:15 that other states and their prison systems used 03:18 to not have as much dissension in a prison. 03:20 Now, you got to explain who's Monte Church? 03:21 Okay. 03:22 Monte Church is the director of Native American Ministries 03:25 within the Seventh-day Adventist Church at the, 03:27 I believe, the North Pacific Union Conferences, 03:29 I believe is... 03:30 You know, I know he's native, 03:32 I didn't know at that time what he was doing. 03:33 But that's one of the things I learned. 03:34 It's a great victory. 03:36 You know, some of the other things 03:37 that we've done over the last 21 years 03:39 at the Northwest Religious Liberty Association, 03:41 is we've conducted about 3,700 mediations. 03:47 And that's when an employee 03:49 is asking for a religious accommodation, 03:51 or they need a letter 03:53 so that they can change the date of a test 03:56 and the law is not favorable for most accommodations 04:01 except in Oregon, 04:03 which changed 04:04 the TWA versus Hardison standard. 04:07 And a lot of times most people of faith, 04:09 they want to be a good witness for their employer. 04:12 They want to be able to be a good employee 04:14 not get written up, 04:16 not get disciplined, not to get fired. 04:17 Yeah, they shouldn't have to make a choice 04:18 between their faith 04:20 and their stewardship as an employee. 04:22 Yeah. 04:23 And there's legal precedent that makes that difficult. 04:25 Another area that we've had great success 04:27 and believe it or not, back in 2010, 04:30 there was a bill dropped in the Olympia Legislature 04:35 to have forced unionization of all childcare workers 04:39 in the State of Washington. 04:41 And the Seventh-day Adventist Church 04:43 I think back in 1974, or '72, 04:45 had a paper basically 04:48 against some aspects of labor union membership. 04:51 Some members are members of labor unions, 04:53 some members aren't. 04:55 But one of the things that I like to look at is 04:57 how good a witness are you for your faith, 05:01 if you're going to do economic harm to your boss 05:03 by going out on strike. 05:05 There are legitimate reasons for labor unions. 05:07 And you know, I think... 05:09 I'm glad you say that because that's the one area 05:11 I don't quite whew historic view, 05:14 even though I'm certain 05:17 that at some point of conflict 05:21 in the USSR unions 05:22 could again be a huge problem. 05:25 I think it's a mixed bag at the moment. 05:28 And there are some clear advantages 05:29 to Eugene activity. 05:30 Yeah. 05:32 One of my very early cases 05:33 in Northwest Religious Liberty Association 05:34 involved the plight of a cashier 05:37 at a place called Fred Meyer. 05:39 And Fred Meyer s a large grocery store 05:41 and multi retail operation. 05:45 And this one lady, 05:46 she wanted to go celebrate Easter 05:48 at her church. 05:50 And she was Catholic. 05:52 Her manager was Catholic also. 05:54 And he said, "Well, you know, 05:56 we will just go together to lunch break, 05:58 have communion, and then come back to work." 06:00 And she's like, "No, you don't understand. 06:02 I want to celebrate the entire day of Easter 06:05 and the Resurrection. 06:06 I want my grandkids to be a part of it. 06:08 I want to take the full day off." 06:10 And he goes, "Nope. 06:11 I made the schedule, you have to do that." 06:13 And so on behalf 06:14 of the Northwest Religious Liberty Association, 06:17 we reached out to Fred Meyer, 06:19 wrote a nice letter to the union shop steward for, 06:22 'cause she's a member of labor union. 06:24 And also wrote a letter to, I think, was in Beaverton, 06:27 Oregon was where Fred Meyer's headquarters was. 06:30 And the manager was very livid that they would go to a lawyer 06:34 to write a letter like that. 06:36 And the union shop steward, he was very much, well, 06:39 we paid double time. 06:41 And so I've got like five volunteers 06:42 wanting to take a place on the shift. 06:44 Yeah. 06:45 So it was no problem just the manager's suffice. 06:46 Just the manager's intransigence. 06:48 And a lot of time it really is just education 06:50 to educate somebody and not their... 06:52 That's the lesson I've got out of it. 06:56 Nine, ten, so much more than that 06:58 of these issues 07:00 are so right out of the gate. 07:01 It's just some communication to the employer 07:04 that this person really has a legal right 07:08 to be accommodated. 07:09 And can you do it or whatever, and then it's sort of smooth. 07:11 It's when it goes further 07:12 that it gets complicated, isn't it? 07:14 Yes. It does. It does. 07:15 One of the other... 07:17 And it's not a sure bet to go the full run. 07:19 One of the other victories 07:21 we had early on was in a public school setting. 07:25 There was a fourth grader 07:27 in Washington State Public School 07:29 that had free reading time. 07:31 And the fourth grader being a Bible believer, 07:36 brought her Bible with her 07:37 to read during free reading time. 07:39 And the teacher went up and confiscated the Bible 07:41 and said, "Separation of church and state, 07:43 you can't have your Bible here at the public school ground." 07:47 And the grandparents called our office. 07:51 And I said, "You know, 07:52 we can do this three different ways. 07:54 One, I can send a mean letter to the teacher 07:56 and the principal. 07:57 Number two, and threatened the law suit. 08:00 Number two, I can print out these regulations 08:03 from the Federal Department of Education 08:05 about what's allowed and not allowed. 08:08 And you and your daughter can go have a meeting 08:10 with the principal in person." 08:13 And not, you wouldn't go? 08:14 I wasn't involved with that. 08:15 I would get involved if they refuse to change. 08:18 And they said that... 08:20 The third thing to do is to do nothing. 08:22 And let these people run over 08:25 your fourth grader's constitutional rights. 08:27 And the path they chose was to take the printouts 08:31 that I had done, 08:32 to go talk to the principal and the teacher 08:35 and the teacher gotten education. 08:37 And their fourth grader 08:39 was able to get her Bible back and use it. 08:40 It worked out beautifully. Yeah. 08:42 Over the years in Liberty, 08:43 we've had many articles on this. 08:44 And this might takeaway, 08:47 that it's usually overzealous teachers 08:50 and school administration, 08:52 not any great move 08:53 against religious liberty of the schools. 08:57 And different... 08:59 Well, I wouldn't call them religious liberty groups, 09:01 but different religious groups that are claiming harassment 09:03 and you know, they really want the largest share of society. 09:06 They're always quoting these cases, 09:09 and they don't illustrate any more than then misguided 09:14 overzealous actions by an individual. 09:19 The law is very plain that the student is allowed 09:22 to share their faith in that environment. 09:23 Exactly. Yeah. 09:25 That reminds me of another case. 09:26 Not necessarily in schools, but in employment law. 09:30 A person contacted me, 09:32 my cell phone rang and it was a church member 09:35 of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, 09:36 named Jeffrey Britt. 09:38 Jeffrey Britt had a great career in the Navy. 09:40 And then after he retired from the Navy, 09:43 he wanted to go back to work for the Navy on the civil side, 09:47 helping with the library for mechanics 09:51 on very sensitive areas. 09:54 And his employer was very hostile to him 09:58 having Sabbath's off, 10:00 from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. 10:02 They started writing him up. 10:03 They made him use his vacation time. 10:05 That was direct hostility. 10:06 They didn't like the whole of it. 10:08 Direct hostility. 10:09 And my cell phone rang, and Jeff told me that 10:11 they want me to sign this document 10:13 and they said, it'll all go away. 10:15 He faxes me the document, I read it, 10:16 and it says that his boss 10:18 would take sensitivity training. 10:20 And he could get fired 10:22 if he didn't report on the Sabbath, essentially, 10:25 is the summary of the form that they thought 10:27 was an accommodation. 10:28 The boss would take or he would have to take it? 10:30 He would get written that... 10:32 The boss would take the sensitivity training, 10:34 and that he'd still get fired 10:36 and no accommodation for the Sabbath. 10:37 Oh, I see. Yeah. 10:38 So anyway, we intervene, 10:40 the Northwest Religious Liberty Association intervened. 10:43 We had a day long mediator 10:46 with two federal mediators on the case. 10:49 He actually got a refund of his vacation pay that he had taken. 10:51 Wow! It was very good. 10:52 So it worked out well. 10:53 Yes, it worked out very well. 10:55 But that's not always the case. 10:57 But it's important to have people 10:59 that stand up for their religious liberty, 11:01 whether it be in the school, 11:03 in the workplace, even in athletics, 11:05 in high school athletics, 11:07 standing up for your faith, 11:09 'cause someone will be there to take it away from you 11:11 if you're not standing up for it. 11:15 I've always been attracted to history, 11:18 the study of history. 11:19 But I must admit, 11:21 I've not always seen it the same way. 11:25 When I was young history was dates, 11:27 and places, and times, and people. 11:31 Most people today see history more as the trend of events 11:34 and a grand story. 11:37 When I look at religious liberty 11:39 in the United States, 11:41 and as this program underlined in the North West, 11:45 there's no question 11:47 that the story of religious liberty protected 11:50 and advanced 11:52 is a story. 11:53 There are many wonderful anecdotal instances 11:57 of great victories 11:58 and a few stumbles along the way. 12:01 But there's no question that great people, 12:04 and great moments have all come together 12:07 to tell a story at this telling, at this day, 12:11 a religious liberty safe and sound. 12:15 I pray that the continuing efforts 12:18 of Attorney Steinberg 12:20 and many of his fellows and other groups 12:22 and other locations within that area 12:25 that they can continue those great successes. 12:29 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2019-10-31