Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI190445A
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00:26 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:27 This is a program designed to bring you up-to-date 00:30 on religious liberty and the dynamic 00:32 that lies behind it in our world today. 00:36 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:39 And my guest on the program is Charles Steinberg, 00:44 attorney and vice president 00:47 of the Northwest Religious Liberty Association. 00:49 Thank you, Lincoln. 00:51 Welcome to the program. 00:53 I want to talk about 00:55 the Northwest Religious Liberty Association 00:56 and what you've discovered in, 00:59 what is it 20 years or so, you've been associated with it. 01:02 Yes. 01:03 I know a lot of things have happened. 01:05 I know some but I want you to tell me and, 01:07 of course, our viewers. 01:10 You know, what are the some of the highlights, 01:12 you don't have to do them in chronological point? 01:14 But let's go over some of the things that 01:16 this wonderful organization 01:18 has been able to do in that quadrant 01:20 of the United States for religious liberty. 01:22 Yeah, very happy to share that with you. 01:25 One of the things that we've done 01:27 is it actually started out, 01:28 I think was my second year 01:29 being involved in the organization. 01:32 We had to do some legislative advocacy 01:34 and with threats of litigation. 01:36 One of the largest population centers 01:38 in Washington State is the town of Seattle. 01:41 And Seattle's within this larger county 01:44 called King County. 01:46 And King County enacted 01:48 these great large comprehensive land use rules, 01:53 saying what you can and can't do 01:55 with your land in rural areas. 01:57 And one of the things that they said was that, 02:00 if you were a private school or a church 02:03 in rural King County, 02:05 you could not remodel it 02:07 and you could not build on your land. 02:11 And in this large update of documents, 02:14 they didn't come right out and say that. 02:16 How they said it was that, 02:18 if you are a public school with a large footprint, 02:21 and you needed to either remodel your public school 02:24 in the rural area, 02:26 you could have a, or build a new one, 02:29 you could have a septic tank 02:32 and a drain field to take care of your necessary business. 02:34 Now did you find out what really lay behind this? 02:37 Was this a purposeful, 02:40 a plan to drive church schools out of areas 02:45 or was it just a byproduct of some other intent? 02:49 I believe it was a probably a byproduct 02:51 of some other intent. 02:53 They were very much against gentrification. 02:55 They wanted to preserve these wide swathes 02:58 of rural land away from development. 03:01 And believe it or not, in my personal belief, 03:03 there was a very anti Catholic issue going on 03:07 because the Catholic Archdiocese of Seattle 03:11 owned a lot of land by Snoqualmie Falls. 03:14 If you ever driven between Seattle and Spokane on I-90, 03:17 Snoqualmie Falls is a beautiful place to see. 03:20 But they were going to develop their retreat center. 03:23 I did numerology work for the tourist company. 03:25 Retreat center, retreat center and conference room. 03:29 It's a lovely part of the world. 03:30 Yeah, it is. 03:31 The Northwest quadrant, I think is, 03:33 I better be careful or I'll be in trouble, 03:34 but it's arguably one of the most beautiful sections 03:38 of the United States. 03:39 Anyway, they were going to build a conference center 03:40 and a retreat center on their own land 03:43 that they owned since the early 1920s. 03:46 And some folks in King County said, 03:48 "No, we can't have that." 03:50 So we're going to enact a moratorium. 03:51 And the vote was 11 to 2 to enact a moratorium 03:55 on any building permits for churches or private schools 03:58 in rural areas of King County. 04:00 And that's, it has a drastic impact 04:03 on any church. 04:05 And so we formed a coalition of the Catholic Church, 04:10 the Seventh-day Adventist Church, 04:12 Baptist Churches, and went and testified 04:16 in front of the King County Metropolitan County Council. 04:19 And just six years earlier, President Bill Clinton, 04:21 I'm showing my age now, 04:23 President Bill Clinton signed this federal law 04:25 into effect called the Religious Land Use 04:28 and Institutionalized Persons Act, 1994. 04:32 I was wondering when you gonna bring this into it. 04:34 Yeah. Anyway... 04:35 But this was before or after that. 04:36 So Clinton signed that into law. 04:38 Because that was he really answering 04:40 a generalized concern. 04:41 It's not just in your area 04:43 that this sort of thing was happening. 04:44 That was on a nationwide basis... 04:45 And in some places, 04:47 and this is what I was fishing for, 04:48 in some places, 04:50 I remember one particular case in Georgia. 04:55 There was a Hispanic company that wanted to build a church 04:59 in a certain neighborhood, 05:01 and the neighborhood rallied 05:03 to drive them out of their area. 05:04 They said they had a hearing, they said, 05:06 "We don't want you people there. 05:08 We don't want your faith, we don't want you." 05:11 So it was, on occasion this was very prejudicial. 05:14 Yeah. 05:15 And it's basically prejudicial because people don't know you, 05:19 they think it's a strange thing. 05:20 So therefore, they're going to get 05:21 the force of law to oust you, 05:23 even after you bought the land, 05:25 even after you close the loan on your mortgage. 05:26 Now in their defense, 05:28 not that it's generally defensible 05:31 but there's social changes I think. 05:34 And like one for example, 05:36 I drive an hour and a half to work 05:38 before the mobility of cars 05:42 is more easily available today and lower price gas 05:46 and all the rest of people wouldn't go so far. 05:49 And a church community, 05:51 usually the people were drawn from around the area 05:53 so it is a social stress often 05:57 to have a church building in neighborhood, 05:58 but all the attendees or a large number of them 06:01 come from somewhere else. 06:03 It doesn't justify their prejudice, 06:05 but there is a social shift and the social stress 06:10 that might not have been in a more traditional era. 06:12 Yeah. 06:14 What King County did basically was they used basically a tank 06:17 when probably something a little more surgical 06:19 could have been appropriate. 06:22 I still remember 06:24 the Maple Valley Community Church, 06:26 they had done all their pre-application meetings 06:28 to do what they could do 06:30 to build a multiple multi use facility 06:33 for banquets and potlucks and also a gymnasium 06:38 at the back of their worship hall. 06:40 And they actually had won the lottery 06:43 in Washington State Water Resources 06:45 at that time probably still are scarce. 06:48 And you'd have to actually enter a lottery 06:50 with the Department of Ecology 06:51 to be able to get a water right. 06:53 And they had won the lottery, 06:55 and they also closed on their loan, 06:57 their building loan. 06:59 So here they're paying interest on this loan. 07:00 And then King County comes along and says, 07:02 "No, you can't build." 07:04 A moratorium, so they had actual real damages... 07:06 Doesn't pass the fairness test, do they? 07:08 No. 07:09 So they had actual real damages mounting. 07:11 And so I got to testify 07:12 at the King County Council meeting 07:14 and they looked at every council member in the eye 07:16 and said, "You know, this new federal law 07:18 provides actual money damages 07:21 to people that are harmed in there 07:24 because of their faith 07:26 in their land use decisions that you guys have made." 07:28 And they had another vote to lift the ban, 07:33 and the vote in favor of lifting the ban. 07:34 And the moratorium was seven to six. 07:38 And then believe it or not... 07:39 So it wasn't the resounding victory. 07:42 No, but it was to lift the moratorium immediately 07:44 under threat of litigation. 07:46 And then the other thing was 07:48 is that even after the ban was lifted, 07:50 the Department of Construction Land Use 07:52 in King County, 07:54 they were still having problems 07:55 processing applications from churches 07:56 and people of faith and private schools. 07:59 And they actually, the King County Council 08:03 did a referendum and said 08:05 to the all the voters of King County, 08:07 "Should we enact the protections 08:08 of the Washington State Constitution 08:11 and the US Constitution into our building 08:13 and land use code?" 08:15 And even in Washington State and King County, 08:20 that was a resounding victory. 08:22 Seventy percent people voted in favor of that referendum. 08:26 But for me, it's common sense, you know, 08:30 you don't discriminate on that basis. 08:32 And they were justifying with all sorts of reasons. 08:35 Now, I was listening to you before, 08:37 but this was before the passage of the Clinton. 08:42 This is after. 08:43 We used our loophole within I think four years 08:45 after passing this view. 08:47 No, the religious land usage. 08:48 Yes, and to go after it. 08:49 And then we've done quite a bit 08:51 in the Northwest Religious Liberty Association, 08:53 not only on the advocacy point of view on that side, 08:57 we've also assisted in changing laws to... 09:00 So what I read from that, even with a bill in place, 09:05 you still had to argue the toss pretty vigorously. 09:08 You do. Yeah, you know, okay. 09:10 So in law school, 09:11 one of my professors always taught me 09:13 if you don't use your rights, you lose them. 09:15 If you don't stand up, 09:16 someone's gonna be there to put you down. 09:18 So it's not quite like a boxer, but you do need to stand up. 09:21 Well, and it's true. That's what I've learned. 09:23 I mean, the US Constitution 09:24 is not being directly tinkered with much. 09:28 But there was a statement made by Ellen White, 09:34 "A person that early Adventist belief 09:36 heads divine insights." 09:40 And she wrote about at the end of time, 09:42 and she said that they will come a time 09:43 when the US will put aside 09:45 every principle of its constitution. 09:48 And at different times, I thought, 09:49 "How could that happen?" 09:51 And I know other people have even thought reading that. 09:54 Well, maybe there'll be some sort 09:55 of constitutional convention where you repudiated. 09:58 I don't think so 09:59 because you can have even such major principles. 10:02 And if they're not defended and confirmed regularly, 10:05 they just sort of fall away, don't they? 10:08 People forget about them. 10:10 And then if you forget about them 10:13 or don't use them 10:14 and don't constantly remind them, 10:16 "Oh, you can't do that, Mr. Constable," 10:18 even in the area of search and seizure. 10:20 Well, and the Supreme Court are constantly picking up 10:23 on laws that are passed at different levels. 10:27 When you see it, it's sort of playing 10:28 but somehow when they pass, 10:30 they either didn't recognize or care 10:32 that they were in direct opposition 10:34 to basic constitutional principles. 10:37 So I've learned that. Yes. 10:39 You need to defend the laws, watching scrupulously. 10:41 And then unfortunately, 10:43 if it's not challenged early on, 10:46 it becomes part of the legal precedent 10:48 and it has... 10:49 It can write a weight of its own. 10:50 It can be a very negative legal precedent. 10:52 In 1976, the US Supreme Court 10:55 decided the case and I'm sorry, folks, 10:57 I'm going to bore you into some legalese. 10:59 They decided a case called TWA versus Hardison. 11:03 And Mr. Hardison wanted a religious accommodation 11:09 for working for their religious beliefs. 11:14 And the Supreme Court's came out and said that, 11:16 "We don't have to accommodate your religious beliefs 11:20 if it is a de minimis expense." 11:22 Now, for those of you to... 11:24 Yeah, had a few articles on this. 11:25 Yeah, if you are managing a household budget, 11:28 a de minimis expense is, 11:30 instead of buying six oranges, 11:32 I'm only going to buy five oranges. 11:35 I actually heard a lawyer argue against me 11:37 that the de minimis expense is even doing, 11:40 writing the ink to do a shift swap. 11:43 So they're vanishing enough, I often say 11:44 it's like a dollars worth of trouble might satisfied. 11:47 Yes. 11:48 But in the Northwest Religious Liberty Association, 11:50 one of our great victories was to... 11:54 And up till then it would have to be an undue hardship. 11:58 An undue hardship and de minimis expense, 12:02 those don't seem to jive right. 12:04 And so in Oregon, 12:06 what the Northwest Religious Liberty Association 12:07 was able to do, 12:09 along with the coalition of people of other faith 12:11 and the legislature and the governor's desk 12:13 was to basically overturn that 12:16 from all employees in Oregon. 12:18 That now an employer has to show 12:20 a significant difficulty or expense. 12:23 Otherwise they have to accommodate 12:24 a person's religious faith in the workplace. 12:26 That's a huge victory, Lincoln! Yeah, it's a victory. 12:28 But even as you say it significant, 12:31 what does that mean? 12:32 It means more than de minimis. 12:34 That's for sure. That's for sure. 12:35 Okay. I'll agree with that. 12:36 But we're close to a break 12:41 but the risk of diverting too much. 12:43 It seems to me that 12:45 that strength and the weakness 12:47 at the same time have a lot of what's written 12:49 into the Constitution 12:51 is what amounts to generalize broad language. 12:56 I think that it when you consider 12:59 that the Constitution and the Bill of Rights 13:03 when you take those together, 13:05 they're meant to be a roadmap 13:07 for the Federal Government. 13:09 There was a reaction 13:10 to the Articles of Confederation. 13:11 That was a very loose federal system. 13:14 And then when you read the documents 13:15 in the Federalist, 13:17 you get to see that 13:18 there's a strong argument to be made, 13:20 that these are the areas that the federal government 13:22 should be active in. 13:24 I, in my during law school, 13:26 I had arguments with my law school professor over, 13:32 can the United States govern 13:33 how much a farmer in Tennessee grows on a corner of his crop? 13:38 And the Supreme Court said, "Yes, you can legislate that." 13:43 That sounds like another program. 13:44 We'll take a short break and be back. 13:47 Talking about the Northwest Religious Liberty Association 13:50 and maybe the Constitution too. 13:52 Stay with us. |
Revised 2019-10-31