Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is a program
designed to bring you up-to-date
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on religious
liberty and the dynamic
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that lies behind
it in our world today.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest on the
program is Charles Steinberg,
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attorney and vice president
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of the Northwest
Religious Liberty Association.
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Thank you, Lincoln.
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Welcome to the program.
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I want to talk about
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the Northwest
Religious Liberty Association
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and what you've discovered in,
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what is it 20 years or so,
you've been associated with it.
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Yes.
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I know a lot of
things have happened.
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I know some but I
want you to tell me and,
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of course, our viewers.
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You know, what are the
some of the highlights,
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you don't have to do
them in chronological point?
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But let's go over
some of the things that
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this wonderful organization
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has been able to
do in that quadrant
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of the United States
for religious liberty.
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Yeah, very happy to
share that with you.
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One of the
things that we've done
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is it actually started out,
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I think was my second year
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being involved
in the organization.
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We had to do some
legislative advocacy
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and with threats of litigation.
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One of the
largest population centers
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in Washington State
is the town of Seattle.
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And Seattle's
within this larger county
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called King County.
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And King County enacted
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these great large
comprehensive land use rules,
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saying what you can and can't do
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with your land in rural areas.
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And one of the things
that they said was that,
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if you were a
private school or a church
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in rural King County,
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you could not remodel it
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and you could not
build on your land.
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And in this large
update of documents,
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they didn't come
right out and say that.
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How they said it was that,
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if you are a public
school with a large footprint,
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and you needed to either
remodel your public school
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in the rural area,
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you could have a,
or build a new one,
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you could have a septic tank
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and a drain field to take
care of your necessary business.
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Now did you find out
what really lay behind this?
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Was this a purposeful,
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a plan to drive
church schools out of areas
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or was it just a
byproduct of some other intent?
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I believe it was a
probably a byproduct
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of some other intent.
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They were very much
against gentrification.
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They wanted to
preserve these wide swathes
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of rural land
away from development.
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And believe it or
not, in my personal belief,
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there was a very anti
Catholic issue going on
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because the Catholic
Archdiocese of Seattle
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owned a lot of land
by Snoqualmie Falls.
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If you ever driven between
Seattle and Spokane on I-90,
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Snoqualmie Falls is a
beautiful place to see.
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But they were going to
develop their retreat center.
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I did numerology work
for the tourist company.
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Retreat center, retreat
center and conference room.
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It's a lovely part of the world.
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Yeah, it is.
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The Northwest
quadrant, I think is,
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I better be careful
or I'll be in trouble,
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but it's arguably one of
the most beautiful sections
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of the United States.
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Anyway, they were going
to build a conference center
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and a retreat
center on their own land
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that they owned
since the early 1920s.
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And some folks
in King County said,
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"No, we can't have that."
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So we're going to
enact a moratorium.
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And the vote was 11 to
2 to enact a moratorium
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on any building permits
for churches or private schools
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in rural areas of King County.
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And that's, it
has a drastic impact
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on any church.
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And so we formed a coalition
of the Catholic Church,
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the Seventh-day
Adventist Church,
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Baptist Churches,
and went and testified
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in front of the King County
Metropolitan County Council.
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And just six years
earlier, President Bill Clinton,
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I'm showing my age now,
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President Bill Clinton
signed this federal law
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into effect called
the Religious Land Use
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and Institutionalized
Persons Act, 1994.
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I was wondering when you
gonna bring this into it.
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Yeah. Anyway...
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But this was
before or after that.
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So Clinton signed that into law.
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Because that was
he really answering
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a generalized concern.
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It's not just in your area
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that this sort of
thing was happening.
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That was on a
nationwide basis...
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And in some places,
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and this is what
I was fishing for,
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in some places,
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I remember one
particular case in Georgia.
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There was a Hispanic company
that wanted to build a church
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in a certain neighborhood,
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and the neighborhood rallied
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to drive them out of their area.
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They said they had
a hearing, they said,
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"We don't want you people there.
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We don't want your
faith, we don't want you."
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So it was, on occasion
this was very prejudicial.
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Yeah.
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And it's basically prejudicial
because people don't know you,
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they think it's a strange thing.
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So therefore,
they're going to get
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the force of law to oust you,
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even after you bought the land,
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even after you close
the loan on your mortgage.
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Now in their defense,
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not that it's
generally defensible
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but there's
social changes I think.
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And like one for example,
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I drive an hour
and a half to work
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before the mobility of cars
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is more easily available
today and lower price gas
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and all the rest of
people wouldn't go so far.
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And a church community,
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usually the people were
drawn from around the area
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so it is a social stress often
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to have a church
building in neighborhood,
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but all the attendees
or a large number of them
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come from somewhere else.
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It doesn't
justify their prejudice,
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but there is a social
shift and the social stress
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that might not have been
in a more traditional era.
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Yeah.
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What King County did basically
was they used basically a tank
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when probably
something a little more surgical
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could have been appropriate.
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I still remember
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the Maple Valley
Community Church,
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they had done all their
pre-application meetings
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to do what they could do
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to build a
multiple multi use facility
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for banquets and
potlucks and also a gymnasium
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at the back of
their worship hall.
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And they actually
had won the lottery
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in Washington
State Water Resources
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at that time
probably still are scarce.
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And you'd have to
actually enter a lottery
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with the Department of Ecology
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to be able to get a water right.
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And they had won the lottery,
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and they also
closed on their loan,
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their building loan.
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So here they're
paying interest on this loan.
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And then King County
comes along and says,
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"No, you can't build."
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A moratorium, so they
had actual real damages...
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Doesn't pass the
fairness test, do they?
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No.
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So they had actual
real damages mounting.
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And so I got to testify
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at the King
County Council meeting
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and they looked at every
council member in the eye
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and said, "You
know, this new federal law
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provides actual money damages
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to people that
are harmed in there
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because of their faith
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in their land use decisions
that you guys have made."
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And they had another
vote to lift the ban,
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and the vote in
favor of lifting the ban.
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And the
moratorium was seven to six.
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And then believe it or not...
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So it wasn't the
resounding victory.
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No, but it was to lift
the moratorium immediately
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under threat of litigation.
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And then the other thing was
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is that even after
the ban was lifted,
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the Department of
Construction Land Use
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in King County,
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they were still having problems
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processing
applications from churches
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and people of faith
and private schools.
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And they actually,
the King County Council
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did a referendum and said
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to the all the
voters of King County,
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"Should we enact the protections
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of the Washington
State Constitution
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and the US
Constitution into our building
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and land use code?"
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And even in Washington
State and King County,
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that was a resounding victory.
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Seventy percent people voted
in favor of that referendum.
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But for me, it's
common sense, you know,
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you don't
discriminate on that basis.
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And they were justifying
with all sorts of reasons.
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Now, I was
listening to you before,
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but this was before
the passage of the Clinton.
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This is after.
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We used our loophole
within I think four years
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after passing this view.
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No, the religious land usage.
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Yes, and to go after it.
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And then we've done quite a bit
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in the Northwest
Religious Liberty Association,
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not only on the advocacy
point of view on that side,
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we've also assisted
in changing laws to...
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So what I read from that,
even with a bill in place,
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you still had to argue
the toss pretty vigorously.
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You do. Yeah, you know, okay.
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So in law school,
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one of my
professors always taught me
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if you don't use your
rights, you lose them.
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If you don't stand up,
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someone's gonna be
there to put you down.
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So it's not quite like a boxer,
but you do need to stand up.
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Well, and it's true.
That's what I've learned.
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I mean, the US Constitution
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is not being
directly tinkered with much.
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But there was a
statement made by Ellen White,
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"A person that
early Adventist belief
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heads divine insights."
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And she wrote
about at the end of time,
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and she said that
they will come a time
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when the US will put aside
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every principle
of its constitution.
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And at different
times, I thought,
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"How could that happen?"
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And I know other people
have even thought reading that.
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Well, maybe
there'll be some sort
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of constitutional
convention where you repudiated.
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I don't think so
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because you can have
even such major principles.
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And if they're not defended
and confirmed regularly,
00:10:02.70\00:10:05.87
they just sort of
fall away, don't they?
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People forget about them.
00:10:08.30\00:10:10.17
And then if you
forget about them
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or don't use them
00:10:13.38\00:10:14.71
and don't
constantly remind them,
00:10:14.74\00:10:16.08
"Oh, you can't do
that, Mr. Constable,"
00:10:16.11\00:10:18.71
even in the area
of search and seizure.
00:10:18.75\00:10:20.68
Well, and the Supreme
Court are constantly picking up
00:10:20.72\00:10:23.42
on laws that are
passed at different levels.
00:10:23.45\00:10:27.22
When you see it,
it's sort of playing
00:10:27.26\00:10:28.69
but somehow when they pass,
00:10:28.72\00:10:30.56
they either
didn't recognize or care
00:10:30.59\00:10:32.33
that they were
in direct opposition
00:10:32.36\00:10:34.20
to basic
constitutional principles.
00:10:34.23\00:10:37.03
So I've learned that. Yes.
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You need to defend the
laws, watching scrupulously.
00:10:39.13\00:10:41.84
And then unfortunately,
00:10:41.87\00:10:43.84
if it's not challenged early on,
00:10:43.87\00:10:46.11
it becomes part of
the legal precedent
00:10:46.14\00:10:48.04
and it has...
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It can write a
weight of its own.
00:10:49.51\00:10:50.85
It can be a very
negative legal precedent.
00:10:50.88\00:10:52.91
In 1976, the US Supreme Court
00:10:52.95\00:10:55.65
decided the case
and I'm sorry, folks,
00:10:55.68\00:10:57.42
I'm going to bore
you into some legalese.
00:10:57.45\00:10:59.92
They decided a case
called TWA versus Hardison.
00:10:59.95\00:11:03.96
And Mr. Hardison wanted
a religious accommodation
00:11:03.99\00:11:09.83
for working for
their religious beliefs.
00:11:09.86\00:11:14.04
And the Supreme
Court's came out and said that,
00:11:14.07\00:11:16.94
"We don't have to accommodate
your religious beliefs
00:11:16.97\00:11:20.38
if it is a de minimis expense."
00:11:20.41\00:11:22.88
Now, for those of you to...
00:11:22.91\00:11:24.25
Yeah, had a few
articles on this.
00:11:24.28\00:11:25.61
Yeah, if you are
managing a household budget,
00:11:25.65\00:11:28.82
a de minimis expense is,
00:11:28.85\00:11:30.79
instead of buying six oranges,
00:11:30.82\00:11:32.49
I'm only going
to buy five oranges.
00:11:32.52\00:11:35.09
I actually heard a
lawyer argue against me
00:11:35.12\00:11:37.03
that the de minimis
expense is even doing,
00:11:37.06\00:11:40.06
writing the ink
to do a shift swap.
00:11:40.10\00:11:43.00
So they're
vanishing enough, I often say
00:11:43.03\00:11:44.73
it's like a dollars worth
of trouble might satisfied.
00:11:44.77\00:11:47.20
Yes.
00:11:47.24\00:11:48.57
But in the Northwest
Religious Liberty Association,
00:11:48.60\00:11:50.91
one of our great
victories was to...
00:11:50.94\00:11:54.01
And up till then it would
have to be an undue hardship.
00:11:54.04\00:11:58.31
An undue hardship
and de minimis expense,
00:11:58.35\00:12:02.55
those don't seem to jive right.
00:12:02.58\00:12:04.69
And so in Oregon,
00:12:04.72\00:12:06.05
what the Northwest
Religious Liberty Association
00:12:06.09\00:12:07.86
was able to do,
00:12:07.89\00:12:09.22
along with the coalition
of people of other faith
00:12:09.26\00:12:11.19
and the legislature
and the governor's desk
00:12:11.23\00:12:13.56
was to basically overturn that
00:12:13.60\00:12:16.00
from all employees in Oregon.
00:12:16.03\00:12:18.70
That now an employer has to show
00:12:18.73\00:12:20.07
a significant
difficulty or expense.
00:12:20.10\00:12:23.37
Otherwise they
have to accommodate
00:12:23.41\00:12:24.74
a person's religious
faith in the workplace.
00:12:24.77\00:12:26.61
That's a huge victory,
Lincoln! Yeah, it's a victory.
00:12:26.64\00:12:28.74
But even as you
say it significant,
00:12:28.78\00:12:31.28
what does that mean?
00:12:31.31\00:12:32.65
It means more than de minimis.
00:12:32.68\00:12:34.02
That's for
sure. That's for sure.
00:12:34.05\00:12:35.58
Okay. I'll agree with that.
00:12:35.62\00:12:36.95
But we're close to a break
00:12:36.99\00:12:41.16
but the risk of
diverting too much.
00:12:41.19\00:12:43.86
It seems to me that
00:12:43.89\00:12:45.73
that strength and the weakness
00:12:45.76\00:12:47.86
at the same time have
a lot of what's written
00:12:47.90\00:12:49.70
into the Constitution
00:12:49.73\00:12:51.53
is what amounts to
generalize broad language.
00:12:51.57\00:12:56.87
I think that it
when you consider
00:12:56.91\00:12:59.67
that the Constitution
and the Bill of Rights
00:12:59.71\00:13:03.38
when you take those together,
00:13:03.41\00:13:05.28
they're meant to be a roadmap
00:13:05.31\00:13:07.62
for the Federal Government.
00:13:07.65\00:13:09.05
There was a reaction
00:13:09.08\00:13:10.42
to the Articles
of Confederation.
00:13:10.45\00:13:11.79
That was a very
loose federal system.
00:13:11.82\00:13:14.12
And then when you
read the documents
00:13:14.16\00:13:15.49
in the Federalist,
00:13:15.52\00:13:17.26
you get to see that
00:13:17.29\00:13:18.63
there's a strong
argument to be made,
00:13:18.66\00:13:20.23
that these are the areas
that the federal government
00:13:20.26\00:13:22.63
should be active in.
00:13:22.66\00:13:24.90
I, in my during law school,
00:13:24.93\00:13:26.67
I had arguments with my
law school professor over,
00:13:26.70\00:13:32.24
can the United States govern
00:13:32.27\00:13:33.81
how much a farmer in Tennessee
grows on a corner of his crop?
00:13:33.84\00:13:38.95
And the Supreme Court said,
"Yes, you can legislate that."
00:13:38.98\00:13:43.22
That sounds
like another program.
00:13:43.25\00:13:44.85
We'll take a
short break and be back.
00:13:44.89\00:13:47.82
Talking about the Northwest
Religious Liberty Association
00:13:47.86\00:13:50.73
and maybe the Constitution too.
00:13:50.76\00:13:52.46
Stay with us.
00:13:52.49\00:13:53.83