Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI190444B
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00:03 Welcome back to our discussion
00:05 with Charles Steinberg, an attorney. 00:08 Charles, Vice President 00:12 of the Northwest Religious Liberty Association. 00:16 We've been talking about your background 00:18 and why you became a lawyer and what that. 00:20 And I think there's a lot to unpack yet. 00:22 Now I'm gonna get into your soul. 00:26 I know you pretty well. Yeah. 00:27 But I think our viewers need to see some more of it. 00:30 What was... 00:32 Again, let's talk more about 00:37 why religious liberty is so important to you 00:39 and how you can put that awareness 00:43 into action through the law? 00:47 So religious liberty is very important to me 00:50 and I'm very passionate about it, 00:52 because it is basically the essence 00:55 of living in a free society. 00:57 Yeah. 00:59 We don't have a state sponsored religion 01:00 in the United States. 01:02 We're free to believe how we want to. 01:05 Yeah. 01:06 And when policies are put in place 01:08 by the government that isolates somebody 01:10 on the basis of religion, 01:12 isolates somebody on the basis of other things 01:17 that a person can't control within their own sphere, 01:23 it can marginalize a group of society. 01:25 What you're saying is 01:26 your sense of fairness was troubled... 01:27 My sense of fair... 01:29 My sense of fairness is troubled by it. 01:30 Yeah. 01:31 And also as a born being, 01:34 born and raised in the Jewish faith, 01:36 I was very aware of the holocaust 01:38 and very aware of government, 01:41 organized governments enacting laws 01:43 that targeted a particular group 01:45 based on their religious faith. 01:46 And then also very much aware 01:48 of how important it is 01:51 to be able to have freedom of belief. 01:54 Yeah. 01:56 I could give you an example, a few examples, 01:58 but tell me in the U.S. history, 02:01 do you think groups have been targeted 02:03 because of their faith? 02:06 Well, of course, people have been targeted 02:07 because of their faith. 02:08 You look in the 1870s, 1880s, the Mormon Church 02:13 has been terribly persecuted 02:15 by the U.S. Government and even the U.S. Cavalry 02:18 riding down on them because of their faith. 02:20 There are other arguments 02:22 that could be had both ways on that, 02:24 but it's very compelling. 02:25 I read an article in Liberty Magazine, 02:27 I think it was like 15 years ago, 02:30 about the persecution of the... 02:31 Yeah, it's one of the ones that I put in. 02:32 About further persecution of Mormons. 02:35 And it was two phases, 02:36 and I think you got both of them. 02:38 It was in Illinois and they brought 02:41 some of it on themselves by their actions. 02:44 It doesn't mean they deserve what they got, 02:46 but, you know, they were forming 02:47 their own militias and very exclusive 02:50 and perhaps not regarding their neighbors well. 02:56 And so, violence broke out often 03:00 between Mormon communities and the surrounding community. 03:05 And at one point the Governor of Illinois 03:08 actually signed an extermination word... 03:10 Mm-hmm. 03:11 Which is an amazing thing 03:13 and what we think of as a claim 03:17 to be a democratic country of freedom. 03:21 But the second phase 03:22 that I don't think too many people know about. 03:24 When they escaped 03:25 and fled out of what was really 03:27 the United States to Utah territory 03:30 that was beyond the reach. 03:31 Jurisdiction, yeah. 03:33 Yeah. 03:34 And set up Salt Lake City, 03:35 then I wish I could remember the president, 03:38 but they were sold to the administration 03:41 as a looming threat. 03:42 Mm-hmm. 03:44 And so an expeditionary force of U.S. Military 03:47 was set up and sent there with 03:49 and I've read the instructions from the president, 03:52 they were to rape and repine. 03:55 Yeah. 03:57 And it's an amazing story about 03:58 how this full-fledged U.S. Military force 04:02 came over the mountains and were prepared to attack. 04:06 And the Mormons decided 04:07 they would wait and see what happens. 04:08 So they and militia line 04:10 both sides of the street and this U.S. Army Force 04:14 under full display with the band and everything 04:16 marched down the main street 04:18 passed the gunmen and out the other side 04:21 and it all sort of fizzled up. 04:22 Yeah. 04:23 But it's a good example 04:25 of where religious tension can lead 04:28 even in a country dedicated to religious freedom. 04:31 Well, and part of my passion 04:33 comes from also our founding of the United States. 04:36 In my view, we've had several different foundings. 04:40 We had an economic founding with the Virginia Company, 04:43 which is the charter to go out 04:45 and make money for England and send it back to England. 04:47 And that was the original impetus, 04:49 not as the myth says to escape religious persecution, 04:52 that was sort of interwoven. 04:54 And then we had a puritanical founding that to be... 04:56 to purify and practice religion pure of the Church of England 05:01 and fleeing the Church of England's persecution, 05:03 so they can purify their faith for just them 05:06 and persecute everybody else that believes differently. 05:08 Yes. 05:09 But then we have this interesting founding 05:11 by Roger Williams in Rhode Island 05:13 that talked about a garden of separation 05:15 between the State, and the Garden of Eden, 05:20 and soul liberty. 05:22 And these things are passionate concepts to me 05:25 that when you have 05:27 a government controlling a church, 05:29 it's not a good thing. 05:31 And when you have a church controlling a government, 05:33 it's not a good thing. 05:35 A lot of blood has been shed 05:37 over many centuries on those issues 05:40 and that's what the United States system 05:42 is so beautiful about 05:44 is that we don't have that. 05:47 And you'd ask for another example 05:49 of persecution or government persecution so. 05:51 Yeah, if you could think of... 05:53 Back in the early 1900s in Oregon... 05:58 in the State of Oregon, 05:59 believe it or not, the Ku Klux Klan 06:01 had a large political foothold and a large following. 06:05 And they actually kept control 06:07 of the governor's office, the legislature, 06:11 and they were very anti-Catholic. 06:13 Well, that was the three-legged-stool was... 06:16 was anti-Jew, anti-Catholic, and racist. 06:20 Yes. 06:22 And they actually passed the law saying that, 06:25 "You couldn't wear any religious garb 06:27 if you were a school teacher in Oregon." 06:30 Of course, they wanted to get out, 06:31 to weed out any Catholic school teachers. 06:34 And through the efforts 06:35 of the Northwest Religious Liberty Association, 06:38 we were able to get that very interesting law. 06:41 That holdover... 06:42 The holdover era of a bygone era repealed, 06:46 and it's by reaching out and working with other people, 06:49 other groups to form coalitions, 06:51 to get things done in the name of religious liberty 06:53 that helps protect us all, Lincoln. 06:55 Yeah, and even as you say that 06:57 it's worth taking a little aside here. 07:01 The Seventh-day Adventist Church 07:03 has a very clear prophetic expectation, 07:06 the end of days 07:08 which Revelation presents to all Christians. 07:12 And, you know, we are very cautious 07:16 of ecumenical movements, 07:18 or a blurring, or adjoining, or an amalgamation, 07:21 or a syncretism between religious faith. 07:24 But it's worth remembering and reminding our own members 07:27 that when you deal with religious liberty, 07:29 there's everything to gain from cooperative, 07:35 charitable relations between all faiths. 07:38 That's not ecumenical in the bad sense. 07:41 Yeah. 07:42 You don't get things done if... 07:45 You don't get things done 07:46 unless you get a broad coalition of support. 07:49 And if you're the one pointing the finger, 07:50 there's a saying, 07:52 "If you point a finger at somebody, 07:53 there are three fingers pointing back at you." 07:55 And if you're afraid to talk to somebody 07:59 because they're Catholic, 08:01 if you're afraid to talk to somebody 08:02 because they're Muslim, 08:04 if you're afraid to talk to somebody 08:05 because they're Jewish, where is your faith? 08:07 Right. 08:09 And our leaders, 08:11 I'm excited in the northwest part 08:13 of the United States, 08:14 our leaders are happy to go out 08:15 and talk to other people, 08:17 other people of their faiths, 08:18 and active and involved in legislation, 08:21 active and involved in talking to our legislators 08:23 and our representatives. 08:24 And it helps to know other people 08:27 because there's often prejudice and suspicion 08:31 comes from lack of knowledge. 08:33 In the worst case between countries, 08:35 you know, in the old days, 08:36 you know, the Barbarian was just a stranger, 08:38 you didn't understand anything about him. 08:40 So he became a mystical dangerous sort of a creature. 08:43 So I think this dialogue is very good. 08:47 You can understand the theological position, 08:49 but what... 08:51 To me is the bottom line, 08:52 religious liberties are for everybody 08:54 or if it's not for everybody, everybody's at threat. 08:57 If there's one exception 08:59 that establishes a dynamic that could mean your, 09:03 yours or my church could be next, 09:05 or my faith, or even just me individually, 09:07 I won't have the right to stand on conscience. 09:10 Yeah. 09:11 And that's one of the beautiful things 09:13 about our system in the United States, 09:15 you have the ability to stand on conscience. 09:18 But it's easier to do that 09:20 when you're not afraid of talking to your neighbor, 09:22 when you're not afraid of enlisting an ally 09:24 to help you with an issue. 09:25 Yeah. 09:27 So as far as your involvement 09:28 with the Northwest Religious Liberty Association 09:31 and in another program, 09:32 I'd like to get some examples 09:34 of some of the things you've done. 09:35 But, you know, what's your takeaways? 09:36 How has it helped you 09:39 and confirming this early concern for justice, 09:43 and why you got into being a lawyer 09:45 in the first place? 09:47 Do you see a sort of fulfillment 09:48 to your life's direction 09:51 in working for religious liberty? 09:53 I do see great fulfillment in working 09:55 with my life's direction for religious liberty 09:58 and that being able to help one person, 10:01 being able to work in the context 10:03 of the framework to change laws, 10:08 to make it be greater protection 10:10 for people of faith, 10:11 either sometimes in land use decisions 10:14 that are isolating on a church 10:16 or sometimes protecting an inmate's right 10:19 to both be a Native American culturally, 10:22 and also be able to have fellowship with Christians. 10:26 Believe it or not, that was an issue 10:28 in Washington State 10:29 where this fellow that was in prison, 10:33 he wasn't able to have fellowship with Christians, 10:35 because the chaplain there said that, 10:38 "Because he's Native American, 10:39 he must only worship animals and spirits." 10:42 And we were able to intercede in that 10:45 and get a new rule allowing Native Americans 10:48 to register as dual, a Native American culturally, 10:51 but they want to worship with Christians 10:53 and they were able to do that. 10:55 It actually became a model that was rolled out 10:57 across different prisons throughout the country. 11:00 And it helps freedom of conscience 11:02 because that's what God really wants. 11:03 Freedom of conscience 11:05 so that people can make a clear choice 11:07 for what's important, 11:09 serving God or serving man. 11:13 No music for this stand up, but in my head, 11:17 I can hear the music to a Neil Diamond song, 11:20 The Story of My Life, 11:21 because he had a romantic spin on it 11:23 and for him, it began, 11:26 the day you came and it ended the day you left. 11:29 But for people of faith, of course, 11:32 life in its best sense begins 11:35 with a commitment to serve the Lord. 11:37 And I think that's extended in a powerful way 11:39 working for religious freedom. 11:42 As it was said by the Apostle Paul, 11:45 "The message that we to give is the gospel of liberty, 11:51 a message of freedom and deliverance." 11:54 And as we've reviewed 11:56 some of the experiences of my guests 11:58 and how and why he became not only a lawyer, 12:01 but a religious liberty activist. 12:03 I'm reminded that all of our life stories 12:06 as varied and as different as they are, 12:09 and coming from both sides of the mountains, 12:11 the cold side and the warm said, 12:14 we can all hit toward the service side. 12:18 God has something for each of us. 12:20 And I believe whether we're Christian, 12:23 whether we're Muslim, Hindu or whatever, 12:26 in our own way, we can recognize 12:28 that we are working for the divine 12:30 as we work for the freedom of conscience, 12:34 the freedom to believe, disbelieve, 12:37 and to follow conscience in any way 12:39 that may occur to an individual 12:40 is the highest ideal for a life commitment. 12:45 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2019-10-24