Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI190444A
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00:26 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:28 This is your program 00:29 for religious liberty news, views, and discussion. 00:33 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:36 And my guest for this program is Attorney Charles Steinberg. 00:41 You're not an... 00:43 You are an attorney, 00:44 but your particular relationship 00:46 to religious liberty as you're vice president 00:48 for The Northwest Religious Liberty Association, right? 00:51 Yes, Lincoln. 00:52 And, of course, you and I 00:54 have had a lot of dealings over the years, 00:55 but this is the first time on this program. 00:57 So in a way to sort of introduce you, 01:01 tell me how... 01:02 What's your background 01:03 and how you became connected with religious liberty work? 01:06 What was the appeal to you? 01:08 Well, every attorney is encouraged 01:10 to do pro bono legal service, 01:13 and my wife and I always enjoy going to camp meeting. 01:15 What's pro bono? 01:17 Well, not everyone's a Latin speaker. 01:18 Pro bono is free legal services. 01:21 And my wife and I love going to camp meeting 01:24 and the camp meeting in Auburn, Washington 01:27 is still a full 10 day camp meeting. 01:28 For the Seventh-day Adventist Church? 01:30 For the Seventh-day Adventist Church. 01:31 And I was at one of the camp meetings 01:33 in 1998-1999, 01:37 and I look back and there was this large booth 01:39 for Liberty Magazine Religious Liberty, 01:42 it had pictures of Thomas Jefferson on it. 01:46 And an announcement came through 01:48 that they were looking for someone 01:49 to be their legal go-to person, and I applied 01:54 and it's been quite a fun road ever since. 01:59 So what year was that again? 02:00 That was back in 1998. 02:01 '98. 1997. 02:03 Just before I began with Liberty Magazine. 02:05 Yes. 02:07 I feel like I'm a new arrival, but it's 20 plus years now. 02:11 Yeah. 02:12 In the Northwest Religious Liberty Association, 02:14 we encompass five states in the northwestern part 02:17 of the United States, Washington, 02:19 Oregon, Idaho, Alaska, and Montana. 02:22 You know, it's quite a big area, 02:23 maybe not a massive amount of people, 02:26 although there's a few good... 02:28 Seattle is a big center. 02:30 But, you know, you saw the need for religious liberty, 02:34 but why did that sort of resonate with you. 02:38 Had you often thought about religious liberty concerns? 02:41 Yes, I thought about religious liberty concerns 02:45 when I was in undergraduate work 02:50 at the University of Washington, 02:52 I worked my way through undergrad 02:54 working in a retail store. 02:56 And I'd fallen away from my Jewish faith 02:58 and not really observing the Sabbath that much. 03:01 And then when I met my wife, she encouraged me 03:03 to start observing the Sabbath again. 03:05 Good wife. 03:06 Good wife. Yes. 03:07 Not all of them, but most good wives are lucky. 03:10 Yes. 03:11 And so I went to my boss at the time, 03:13 and my boss at the time at Schuck's Auto Supply, 03:17 which is a retail chain in the Northwest. 03:20 I said, "You know, I need to have sundown Friday off 03:22 to sundown Saturday off." 03:23 And Jeff said, 03:25 "You know, you know, Chuck, I'm happy to give you that. 03:27 You can work and open and close all day Sunday." 03:30 And that was my first instant into requesting 03:33 what I would learn later was a religious accommodation... 03:36 And not always easy as that for people. 03:38 A very hard for many people to have to choose 03:40 between their job and their religious faith, 03:44 but that was my initial introduction into it 03:46 and I was really excited 03:48 to be able to put some my legal skills to work 03:50 on behalf of the region and other people of faith. 03:53 Okay. 03:56 In our religious liberty work, 03:57 both within our Adventist community 03:59 and then the larger religious community, 04:01 not just Christian, many lawyers are involved. 04:05 And there's clearly a strong legal component 04:09 and governance and so on. 04:10 But what was it about for you 04:14 when you look back training as a lawyer that 04:16 that sort of heads you in the direction 04:19 to see the importance of religious liberty? 04:21 Because it's not just a legal question, is it? 04:23 It's not a legal question. It really... 04:25 what it really comes down to is, 04:29 you need to have the freedom to be able to worship 04:32 regardless of what your faith background is. 04:35 Yeah. 04:36 And when you have somebody, 04:37 whether it would be the government, your boss, 04:40 or some outside source, basically trying to tell you, 04:45 "You can't do XYZ 04:47 because just because of your faith," 04:50 that's outright prejudice. 04:52 Yeah. 04:53 And within the legal framework 04:55 in the United States and in Canada, 04:56 you can go to the courts sometimes 04:59 to get redress. 05:00 And a lot of times that... 05:02 A lot of times that works well, 05:04 a lot of times it doesn't work well. 05:05 Yes. 05:06 And well, there's the biggest story, 05:08 which we might talk more about later. 05:09 Yes. 05:10 But what I'm fishing at, I have... 05:13 And tell me if I'm right or wrong? 05:15 I've developed views that that lawyers 05:18 in the general lawyer community, 05:21 they don't all think of absolute values, 05:24 the way lay people think they do. 05:28 It's often whether this can be argued 05:30 and president of course carries that they said, 05:33 where in religious liberty, 05:35 we take a preexistent value position, 05:39 it does relate to the rights of a human being, 05:43 but it goes even further. 05:45 We are created being God's image, 05:46 the power of choice and so on. 05:49 But it may not be quite as clear to some lawyers, 05:53 that this is an absolute right. 05:56 Yeah... 05:57 Like for example, it bothers me like crazy. 06:00 I see the legislation 06:02 that goes through on religious liberty 06:03 and it nearly always says that this is allowed 06:07 unless there's a government, what's the term? 06:12 Let's say some compelling state interest otherwise. 06:14 A compelling government interest, 06:16 one of the standards, yes. 06:17 Well, if you believe in a moral absolute 06:18 that's such a weaselly statement. 06:21 And then also lawyers always saying, 06:23 "Yes, well you have this right, 06:24 but it's in relation to another person's right." 06:27 And there might be times 06:29 when it trumps your right for religious liberty 06:30 or at least religious action in that situation. 06:33 Yeah. 06:34 When there are conflicts... 06:36 when there are conflicts the courts sometimes 06:37 have to engage in balancing tests and... 06:40 Right, now you're getting... Sometimes there's a winner. 06:41 Thank you, I'm glad you said that 'cause... 06:43 Sometimes there's a winner and sometimes there's a looser. 06:45 Right and it's very practical. 06:47 I mean, that's why lawyers do. 06:49 But it is, a bit at odds with moral absolutes. 06:52 It's very much at odds with moral absolutes, 06:54 but you know, we're not under theocracy. 06:56 No. 06:57 We're under a constitutional republic 06:59 in the United States. 07:00 Yes. 07:01 And the Bible, when I read through the Bible, 07:04 I see that God is a God of free will. 07:07 God's got a free choice. 07:09 In our legal training, 07:10 we are taught to muster up whatever arguments we can 07:14 for that certain proposition. 07:15 Yeah. 07:17 And then some... in some of my law classes, 07:19 we were told after we prepared that side of the argument, 07:21 we were told immediately to flip the debate. 07:24 The O.J. Simpson Law. 07:26 Flip the argument. 07:28 The Kardashian approach. 07:29 Flip the argument and argue the other side. 07:31 Yeah. And it's a good exercise. 07:32 I did that in a lot of things myself. 07:34 Yeah. 07:35 You really need to put yourself in the other position 07:37 to fully understand your own even. 07:39 And one of the things I remember from... 07:41 It's been about 20 years now, 07:43 one of the things I remember about 20 years ago, 07:45 is my colleague and I were discussing, 07:49 can you have a robust free exercise of religion 07:52 guaranteed by the First Amendment 07:54 of the U.S. Constitution? 07:56 And also can you have a robust antiestablishment, 08:02 the government shouldn't be establishing churches. 08:04 Can you have both of those coexisting? 08:07 Well, we could have two or three programs on that... 08:09 I think so. 08:11 Between free exercise and the establishment 08:12 as the whole game, at least constitutionally. 08:15 Yeah. 08:17 But, it's all basically done to help people 08:18 to free up their ability to worship 08:20 as their conscience dictates. 08:22 Yeah. It's the main thing. 08:23 It's liberty of conscience. Yes. 08:25 And that's what I tell a lot of people 08:27 on religious accommodation. 08:29 The intent is to accommodate people's religion, 08:34 but usually when it comes up, 08:36 the issue is not what religion you have, 08:38 or what your church says, 08:39 or what dispensation or otherwise, 08:41 it's your conscience, 08:42 you're under conscience conviction 08:44 for the stance, you alone. 08:46 In court, if it's an employee-employer situation, 08:50 it's usually not your church there 08:51 standing up in court with you, it's just one person. 08:54 Yeah. 08:55 One person who's very strong in their belief 08:58 and willing to take on the consequences 09:00 of them standing up for that belief, 09:02 whether it be termination from their job, 09:06 not being the breadwinner anymore, 09:08 or in some cases 09:10 they would risk being attacked, 09:15 have sugar poured in their gas tank 09:16 in different union, 09:18 labor union job places and things like that 09:21 or have their scaffolding 09:23 on a construction job site sabotaged. 09:25 Really soon it will be shorting out the battery 09:27 on your prayer suit. 09:28 Possibly. 09:30 Possibly, but... 09:32 but it is a matter of principle for everybody 09:34 and the principles of the Constitution 09:35 and the Bill of Rights, 09:37 they do stand for something 09:38 and I see the Religious Liberty Ministry 09:40 as a way to breathe life into that for each individual. 09:43 Yeah, absolutely. 09:45 You know, back again to how you got into this. 09:49 But what attracted you to being a lawyer? 09:51 What attracted me to being a lawyer? 09:54 My... 09:55 I've been told this is as corny, 09:57 but it's really true. 09:59 I've always been kind of a larger girthed person. 10:01 And when I was 11 years old, 10:04 we were playing King of the Hill 10:06 at my neighbor, Rob Maddox's house 10:08 and Rob Maddox had this very large... 10:10 His parents had this very large grassy hill, 10:13 and two of my best friends 10:14 made it to the top of the hill first. 10:16 For those of you that don't know, 10:17 King of the Hill can be a violent game, 10:19 you just basically push everybody off 10:22 and the last man standing is King of the Hill. 10:25 Young people play a lot of violent games. 10:27 Yeah, and two of my friends 10:29 made it to the top of the hill at the same time, 10:30 and they started fighting and duking it out. 10:34 And I've always been the larger guy 10:35 and so I stood between them 10:37 and shoved them both down and said, 10:38 "There's a better way to solve this. 10:41 We should talk it out or flip a coin." 10:42 Mmm. 10:43 And we ended up flipping a coin. 10:45 I think Rich ended up winning the coin toss, 10:46 but I've always been fascinated with the law as a tool. 10:51 So how old were you... 10:52 I was 11 years old. 10:53 Eleven years. Eleven years old. 10:55 And then seeing how the law has interacted 10:57 with so many different people's lives, 11:00 for both better and for the worse. 11:03 I thought it would be a good skill set to use. 11:07 I've always been a really good chess player 11:09 and analytical, methodical thinking ahead. 11:13 Yeah. 11:14 Well, so it was the law in general. 11:17 So you, but and I guess you're thinking about justice. 11:21 Always thinking about justice, in Deuteronomy, justice, 11:24 justice shalt thou pursue. 11:26 Yeah, that's true. 11:27 And as a lawyer, that's what we strive for. 11:29 And sometimes you're left scratching your head, but... 11:34 Yeah, very interesting. 11:37 And I thought, and maybe it's true that you, 11:39 you had a parallel interest 11:41 in constitutional things and history and so. 11:45 I'm very much interested in constitutional law, 11:48 very much interested in history. 11:50 I majored in history as an undergraduate 11:52 at the University of Washington, 11:54 focusing on history, 11:56 both of the northwestern part of the United States 11:59 and also of history of Jews, 12:01 specifically history of Jews during World War II, 12:04 which is a very... 12:06 Have you read that book, "The Wandering Jew?" 12:08 I've not read the book, "The Wandering Jew." 12:09 I forget the author, but that, you know, 12:12 it's like war and peace. 12:14 Yeah. But it's an amazing book. 12:16 Yeah. Amazing book. 12:17 Yeah. 12:18 Because, you know, maybe some people think... 12:21 I don't think most people think much 12:22 about history anyhow, but, you know, 12:24 they're still vaguely aware of the holocaust 12:25 and the attitudes there, 12:27 and then some Christians 12:28 perhaps think of the Old Testament, 12:31 but to me the overall story that's continuous 12:35 through the ages of the Jewish people, 12:37 an amazing story. 12:40 It's strange, in fact a stranger than fiction. 12:42 Yeah. 12:43 A friend of mine asked me the other day, 12:44 "How come Jews are so persecuted?" 12:47 And you know, I said, 12:49 "You know, the basic human nature 12:51 many times is jealousy, 12:53 many times at the root of it jealous of power, 12:57 jealous of other things." 12:59 And part of me, 13:02 when the laws use systematically 13:05 to deny a person their right to even exist, 13:08 there's a problem there. 13:10 It was a statement and I think you're right 13:12 and no one think could counter that. 13:15 But I remember reading a statement 13:17 I think it was early on in the Roman Empire. 13:20 They said that, 13:22 "No people were more dismissive of the gods than the Jews." 13:25 Mmm. 13:27 And that could create troubles. 13:28 Yes. 13:29 Oh, yeah, there's a reason for that. 13:31 We'll be back after a short break. 13:32 So stay with us and we'll return 13:35 with Charles Steinberg. 13:37 We can delve into his past 13:39 and find out more about religious liberty. |
Revised 2019-10-24