Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI190443B
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00:03 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider,
00:05 before the break, with the guest, Dennis Seaton, 00:08 we were in the middle 00:10 of the whole immigration discussion, 00:12 which has a strong moral component, 00:14 I think, which we can focus on. 00:17 But inadvertent and very necessarily, 00:20 we talk about 00:22 what the political context and so on. 00:23 But, you know, we're talking religious liberty 00:26 and the role of faith and faithful people 00:28 and commenting on this, 00:30 we got to avoid 00:31 a strong avert political demands, 00:34 I think that's middling 00:36 more than just the rights of individual citizens, 00:39 which this is what I do think at the moment. 00:42 The American citizenry 00:45 needs to be more informed on this 00:47 and not fall prey to jingoistic us versus them thinking. 00:53 And I've heard spokespeople, 00:57 in particular for the conservatism, 01:01 lightly saying things that make my blood run cold. 01:04 I remember, a conservative commentatoress, 01:11 which will identify her pretty clearly. 01:13 But she was giving bogus information on the incidents 01:16 of mass shootings by illegal immigrants. 01:20 And I didn't believe her statistic to start with, 01:22 but she said that most of the shootings 01:24 are performed 01:26 by first or second-generation immigrants. 01:30 And I thought about that. 01:32 That's a horrific statement. 01:34 First of all, it's not true in a statistical level, 01:37 but what's 01:38 the second-generation immigrant? 01:40 Well, if you want to ask... 01:42 So the rabid talk is encouraging the idea 01:46 of who is a real American? 01:51 Who really belongs here? 01:54 A second generation, 01:55 you can even be president as a second generation. 01:58 That's called a citizen, a native-born citizen. 02:01 So to me, it's shades of othering, 02:04 like happened in Germany. 02:06 You know, you could be... 02:08 Your great grandfather could have a part Jewish blood, 02:10 you're not tainted. 02:12 You know, that's a horrible 02:15 determination by lineage of who you are. 02:19 I always thought that when someone raised their hand 02:21 and swore to be a good citizen, and was inducted in, 02:25 got all the papers, they were in. 02:28 So we're really creating a real, 02:31 what it reminds to, 02:32 they're not in if they're this person 02:34 from somewhere they don't like, that's what's going up. 02:36 It's not with everyone, 02:38 but there's an undercurrent of this, 02:40 that's very... 02:43 For one of a better word, races, but it's more origin, 02:47 where this person comes from, unacceptable to certain groups. 02:52 And that needs to be fought against 02:54 because it's inherently un-American 02:56 and it's inherently un-Christian, inhumane. 03:02 And that kind of goes, 03:03 I agree with you that we have to... 03:06 That that's what's going on. 03:09 And I think that that's where I kind of just hinted at it 03:12 or didn't quite explain it as well as you have 03:15 that the idea that our country 03:17 is divided on different political issues, 03:20 and immigration is one of them. 03:22 And because churches 03:24 with no matter which organization, 03:28 the citizens of the United States 03:30 are attending those churches, 03:31 then the churches are divided as well. 03:33 And so I think that we need to find some way 03:37 to recognize that we have responsibilities. 03:39 Yeah. 03:41 And when we look at what's happening 03:43 on the southern border 03:44 because that's where most of the contentiousness is, 03:48 for whatever reason. 03:50 And when you have those discussions, 03:53 whether it's in a political setting 03:55 or whether it's in a church setting, 03:57 you're going to have people 03:59 on both sides of the discussion. 04:03 It's both sides of the wall. 04:05 Yeah, pretty much. 04:06 And so I think that that's why I said that... 04:10 And I've come to the realization 04:14 that the people... 04:15 No matter what side you're on, 04:17 it's going to be difficult to change. 04:19 And sometimes, these sides separate families 04:22 'cause they separate churches, 04:24 they separate people in general. 04:26 And so that's not what I think we're called to do. 04:29 We need to find ways to bring people together. 04:31 What I find disconcerting 04:34 about the current iteration of this long-term debate, 04:40 it gets back almost to the beginning of the nation, 04:45 is the role some... 04:50 Maybe they're not church-based, 04:51 but some religious-identified organizations 04:55 have played in buying for the wall and all the rest 04:59 'cause there's a certain alliance 05:01 between politically active Christian factions 05:04 and the administration. 05:06 So they've identified with the new initiative. 05:10 And I find it problematic that we see that today 05:14 where the last time around that it was a huge issue 05:16 was the Sanctuary Movement in the '70s 05:20 with the Cambodian refugees in particular. 05:22 Oh, yes, yes. 05:23 And churches of many denominations, 05:26 not all of them, but churches 05:28 across the denominational spread, 05:31 stepped out and offered literal sanctuary 05:34 for some of those illegal immigrants, 05:36 not forever because we can't... 05:38 They can't... 05:39 Like they couldn't do a signed deal 05:41 where you live years on end in the church prison. 05:44 But they were sheltered in the church on an old model 05:47 that comes from the Middle Ages and back to the Old Testament, 05:50 where you go into the temple, 05:51 and grab the horns of the altar, 05:53 and you were saved. 05:54 So they were there while the community 05:58 and the government sort of gathered, 06:00 it's brethren decided what to do in a rational way 06:03 rather than, you know, deport immediately, 06:06 and it worked out well. 06:08 I don't remember any lingering antipathy 06:13 or social damage that was done, 06:16 but it helped facilitate an integration 06:20 and a more rational government approach. 06:22 But this time around, the church hasn't stepped up 06:24 in the same moral way. 06:26 If anything, elements of church organizations 06:30 are in the hunt, 06:32 they are the aggressor on this. 06:35 It's not dynamically good for conscience 06:38 and for Christian witness in my view. 06:41 And what you're talking about right now 06:43 or what you're proposing... 06:45 I think there should be, among other things, 06:48 a moral outrage shouted across the land 06:52 at a number of things, 06:53 including this policy of separation which continues. 06:56 They say it's not but it's continuous. 06:59 And you even mentioned that some families, 07:02 they don't even know how to get there. 07:04 They've lost the record, they lost in the system. 07:07 That's an injustice of the first order. 07:12 Yes, and I don't... 07:14 And let's give them the benefit, 07:15 not intended, but it happened, and it could be stopped. 07:18 Well, but yes, and it's not... 07:23 It's one thing for it to happen. 07:24 It's another thing for it to really not try to be undone. 07:29 But so I think that the issue is for us. 07:34 Now if we are going to hold people accountable, 07:37 the only way that you can hold accountable, 07:40 elected officials, is by the vote. 07:44 And the way things are happening 07:46 politically in the United States, 07:47 now voting is a really huge issue 07:49 because of how districts are drawn 07:52 and how things happen. 07:53 So political people will make political decisions, 07:56 and then there's consequences for that. 07:59 But there's one thing 08:01 that we as citizens of the United States, 08:04 as members of religious organizations, 08:06 can do outside of voting that will make a difference. 08:10 And that's hold our elected officials 08:14 accountable by asking them to partner with you 08:18 to make a difference in these particular situations. 08:20 And back to what you'd said in another program, 08:24 by making that contact, 08:25 let your personal views on this be known. 08:28 Yes. 08:30 The feedbacks are very important. 08:32 On the federal level, we had a church liaison there, 08:35 and he came back early on in his tenure, very startled 08:39 because we'd encourage people to send in emails 08:42 on some particular legislation, 08:44 and he got a comment from the legislators. 08:46 We've been inundated 08:49 with the comments and emails and all. 08:51 This turned out that I already have got like 08:53 10 or 15 or something, enough to get their attention. 08:57 And I'm glad you brought that up, Lincoln, 08:59 because that particular thing that you just pointed out 09:02 is totally accurate. 09:04 If a legislator gets more than five letters 09:09 or emails or phone calls... 09:11 And it's a good thing 09:12 because it means they are responsive 09:14 to the feedback that you and I are capable of doing. 09:16 But it also shows that the feedback 09:18 that we are giving them 09:20 has heard and paid attention to. 09:21 Yes. 09:23 So all is not hopeless 09:25 in this challenge to the nation, I believe, 09:28 which is legal and practical for the government. 09:31 But it has a moral component. 09:33 There can be moral growth 09:35 I think in approaching it positively, don't you think? 09:39 I think that God is making a... 09:45 a significant effort 09:46 to communicate with people around the world 09:49 and in all religious organizations 09:52 to realize that we've come to a time in earth's history 09:54 where we need to be involved, 09:56 not only with our elected officials, 09:58 but with the people that they serve 09:59 so that we can find out what their issues are 10:01 and that we can come together as a group of people 10:04 to make things better in our community. 10:09 When talking about immigration, 10:10 it used to be pretty much de rigueur 10:14 to mention Emma Lazarus's famous poem 10:18 inscribed at the base of the Statue of Liberty 10:20 about the tired, and your poor, 10:22 and all needy that could come and find shelter. 10:26 But I'd rather go a little further back 10:29 to the Old Testament 10:31 where God is speaking to the escaped slaves, 10:35 left Egypt on their way to a better land. 10:37 He says, "Remember, I am your God 10:40 that brought you out of Egypt." 10:41 And that was repeated over and over again 10:43 all throughout the Old Testament. 10:45 We've all come from somewhere, 10:49 especially in the United States, 10:50 this new land that was settled 10:52 as a land of promise by Protestants and others, 10:56 leaving an old world of persecution. 10:58 And while there are realities of law 11:01 and practicalities of running a country, 11:04 a little charity 11:06 and a little Christian sensibility 11:08 and spiritual sympathy wouldn't go far 11:12 at a time of great tension 11:14 and the increased polarization of attitudes 11:17 between peoples and station 11:20 and the role that people play in society. 11:23 The immigrant, the stranger in our midst, 11:26 as the Bible says, is to be treated fairly, 11:30 and if possible, 11:31 even incorporated into our community. 11:34 This is the challenge that's before us today 11:36 as never before. 11:38 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2019-07-22