Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider,
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before the break, with
the guest, Dennis Seaton,
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we were in the middle
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of the whole
immigration discussion,
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which has a
strong moral component,
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I think, which we can focus on.
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But inadvertent
and very necessarily,
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we talk about
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what the
political context and so on.
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But, you know, we're
talking religious liberty
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and the role of
faith and faithful people
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and commenting on this,
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we got to avoid
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a strong avert
political demands,
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I think that's middling
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more than just the
rights of individual citizens,
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which this is what I
do think at the moment.
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The American citizenry
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needs to be
more informed on this
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and not fall prey to jingoistic
us versus them thinking.
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And I've heard spokespeople,
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in particular
for the conservatism,
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lightly saying things
that make my blood run cold.
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I remember, a
conservative commentatoress,
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which will
identify her pretty clearly.
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But she was giving bogus
information on the incidents
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of mass shootings
by illegal immigrants.
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And I didn't believe
her statistic to start with,
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but she said that
most of the shootings
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are performed
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by first or
second-generation immigrants.
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And I thought about that.
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That's a horrific statement.
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First of all, it's not
true in a statistical level,
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but what's
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the second-generation immigrant?
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Well, if you want to ask...
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So the rabid talk
is encouraging the idea
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of who is a real American?
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Who really belongs here?
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A second generation,
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you can even be president
as a second generation.
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That's called a
citizen, a native-born citizen.
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So to me, it's
shades of othering,
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like happened in Germany.
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You know, you could be...
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Your great grandfather
could have a part Jewish blood,
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you're not tainted.
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You know, that's a horrible
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determination by
lineage of who you are.
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I always thought that
when someone raised their hand
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and swore to be a good
citizen, and was inducted in,
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got all the
papers, they were in.
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So we're really creating a real,
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what it reminds to,
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they're not in if
they're this person
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from somewhere they don't
like, that's what's going up.
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It's not with everyone,
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but there's an
undercurrent of this,
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that's very...
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For one of a better word,
races, but it's more origin,
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where this person comes from,
unacceptable to certain groups.
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And that needs
to be fought against
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because it's
inherently un-American
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and it's inherently
un-Christian, inhumane.
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And that kind of goes,
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I agree with you
that we have to...
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That that's what's going on.
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And I think that that's where
I kind of just hinted at it
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or didn't quite
explain it as well as you have
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that the idea that our country
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is divided on
different political issues,
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and immigration is one of them.
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And because churches
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with no matter
which organization,
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the citizens of
the United States
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are attending those churches,
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then the churches
are divided as well.
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And so I think that
we need to find some way
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to recognize that we
have responsibilities.
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Yeah.
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And when we look
at what's happening
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on the southern border
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because that's where most
of the contentiousness is,
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for whatever reason.
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And when you have
those discussions,
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whether it's in
a political setting
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or whether it's
in a church setting,
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you're going to have people
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on both sides of the discussion.
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It's both sides of the wall.
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Yeah, pretty much.
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And so I think that
that's why I said that...
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And I've come to the realization
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that the people...
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No matter what side you're on,
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it's going to be
difficult to change.
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And sometimes, these
sides separate families
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'cause they separate churches,
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they separate people in general.
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And so that's not what I
think we're called to do.
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We need to find ways
to bring people together.
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What I find disconcerting
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about the current iteration
of this long-term debate,
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it gets back almost to
the beginning of the nation,
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is the role some...
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Maybe they're not church-based,
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but some religious-identified
organizations
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have played in buying
for the wall and all the rest
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'cause there's
a certain alliance
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between politically
active Christian factions
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and the administration.
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So they've identified
with the new initiative.
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And I find it problematic
that we see that today
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where the last time
around that it was a huge issue
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was the Sanctuary
Movement in the '70s
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with the Cambodian
refugees in particular.
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Oh, yes, yes.
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And churches of
many denominations,
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not all of them, but churches
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across the
denominational spread,
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stepped out and
offered literal sanctuary
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for some of those
illegal immigrants,
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not forever because we can't...
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They can't...
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Like they
couldn't do a signed deal
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where you live years on
end in the church prison.
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But they were sheltered
in the church on an old model
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that comes from the Middle Ages
and back to the Old Testament,
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where you go into the temple,
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and grab the horns of the altar,
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and you were saved.
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So they were there
while the community
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and the
government sort of gathered,
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it's brethren decided
what to do in a rational way
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rather than, you
know, deport immediately,
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and it worked out well.
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I don't remember
any lingering antipathy
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or social damage that was done,
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but it helped
facilitate an integration
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and a more rational
government approach.
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But this time around,
the church hasn't stepped up
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in the same moral way.
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If anything, elements
of church organizations
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are in the hunt,
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they are the aggressor on this.
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It's not
dynamically good for conscience
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and for Christian
witness in my view.
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And what you're
talking about right now
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or what you're proposing...
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I think there should
be, among other things,
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a moral outrage
shouted across the land
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at a number of things,
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including this policy of
separation which continues.
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They say it's not
but it's continuous.
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And you even
mentioned that some families,
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they don't even
know how to get there.
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They've lost the
record, they lost in the system.
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That's an
injustice of the first order.
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Yes, and I don't...
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And let's give them the benefit,
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not intended, but it happened,
and it could be stopped.
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Well, but yes, and it's not...
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It's one thing for it to happen.
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It's another thing for it
to really not try to be undone.
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But so I think that
the issue is for us.
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Now if we are going to
hold people accountable,
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the only way that
you can hold accountable,
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elected
officials, is by the vote.
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And the way things are happening
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politically in
the United States,
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now voting is a
really huge issue
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because of how
districts are drawn
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and how things happen.
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So political people will
make political decisions,
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and then there's
consequences for that.
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But there's one thing
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that we as citizens
of the United States,
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as members of
religious organizations,
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can do outside of voting
that will make a difference.
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And that's hold
our elected officials
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accountable by asking
them to partner with you
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to make a difference in
these particular situations.
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And back to what you'd
said in another program,
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by making that contact,
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let your personal
views on this be known.
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Yes.
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The feedbacks
are very important.
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On the federal level, we
had a church liaison there,
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and he came back early on
in his tenure, very startled
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because we'd encourage
people to send in emails
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on some particular legislation,
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and he got a comment
from the legislators.
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We've been inundated
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with the comments
and emails and all.
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This turned out that
I already have got like
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10 or 15 or something,
enough to get their attention.
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And I'm glad you
brought that up, Lincoln,
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because that particular
thing that you just pointed out
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is totally accurate.
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If a legislator gets
more than five letters
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or emails or phone calls...
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And it's a good thing
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because it means
they are responsive
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to the feedback that you
and I are capable of doing.
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But it also
shows that the feedback
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that we are giving them
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has heard and paid attention to.
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Yes.
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So all is not hopeless
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in this challenge to
the nation, I believe,
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which is legal and
practical for the government.
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But it has a moral component.
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There can be moral growth
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I think in approaching it
positively, don't you think?
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I think that God is making a...
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a significant effort
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to communicate with
people around the world
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and in all
religious organizations
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to realize that we've come
to a time in earth's history
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where we need to be involved,
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not only with our
elected officials,
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but with the
people that they serve
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so that we can find
out what their issues are
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and that we can come
together as a group of people
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to make things
better in our community.
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When talking about immigration,
00:10:09.40\00:10:10.87
it used to be
pretty much de rigueur
00:10:10.91\00:10:14.24
to mention Emma
Lazarus's famous poem
00:10:14.28\00:10:18.45
inscribed at the base
of the Statue of Liberty
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about the tired, and your poor,
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and all needy that
could come and find shelter.
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But I'd rather go
a little further back
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to the Old Testament
00:10:29.86\00:10:31.19
where God is speaking
to the escaped slaves,
00:10:31.23\00:10:35.53
left Egypt on their
way to a better land.
00:10:35.56\00:10:37.73
He says,
"Remember, I am your God
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that brought you out of Egypt."
00:10:40.30\00:10:41.84
And that was
repeated over and over again
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all throughout
the Old Testament.
00:10:43.97\00:10:45.94
We've all come from somewhere,
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especially in the United States,
00:10:49.11\00:10:50.45
this new land that was settled
00:10:50.48\00:10:52.65
as a land of promise
by Protestants and others,
00:10:52.68\00:10:56.42
leaving an old
world of persecution.
00:10:56.45\00:10:58.95
And while there
are realities of law
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and practicalities
of running a country,
00:11:01.52\00:11:04.69
a little charity
00:11:04.73\00:11:06.06
and a little
Christian sensibility
00:11:06.09\00:11:08.60
and spiritual
sympathy wouldn't go far
00:11:08.63\00:11:12.80
at a time of great tension
00:11:12.83\00:11:14.70
and the increased
polarization of attitudes
00:11:14.74\00:11:17.71
between peoples and station
00:11:17.74\00:11:20.61
and the role that
people play in society.
00:11:20.64\00:11:23.71
The immigrant, the
stranger in our midst,
00:11:23.75\00:11:26.58
as the Bible says,
is to be treated fairly,
00:11:26.61\00:11:30.15
and if possible,
00:11:30.19\00:11:31.52
even incorporated
into our community.
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This is the challenge
that's before us today
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as never before.
00:11:36.16\00:11:38.63
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:11:38.66\00:11:42.20