Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is your program
designed to bring you insight,
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views, discussion,
and general analysis
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of religious liberty events
in the US and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty magazine.
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And my guest on this
program is Dennis Seaton,
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legislative liaison for
the Church State Council
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in Sacramento, California,
working with legislators.
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I know you're in a region
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rather than dealing
with the national government,
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but let's discuss something
that's almost consuming
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the entire governmental
actions in the US of late.
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And many people
have stood up about it
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all across the country,
this issue of immigration.
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And as I say that, you
know, my accent betrays me,
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and to the day I die,
there's a certain taint
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of Australian about me.
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So I'm an immigrant.
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I've been here
since I was a teenager.
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Your family, I think
you've got family connections
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come from other places.
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And pretty much everybody
except the American Indians
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has come from
somewhere sometime.
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But that said,
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since the collapse
of the Soviet Union,
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I think, the US is seeing
immigration as more of a threat
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than a welcome addition.
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And so, you know, we've got
a discussion at the moment that
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while it has a legal
logic and president comes on
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who we should
let, and how, and why,
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don't you think
there's a moral issue
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how humans treat other humans
and what is the correct way
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for people of
faith to relate to this?
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I do.
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And this is not the first
time that the American populace
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or the American...
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America has faced
this particular issue.
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One of the more
notable ones was the boats
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that were in New York
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with boatloads of people
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that had wanted to
emigrate here from Europe
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during World War II,
and they were sect of Jews.
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They were Jewish.
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And they were
sent back to Germany,
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and they met their faith there.
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So when we look at immigration
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or when we look at
issues during World War II
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with the Japanese
culture of the people
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that have been here
for decades or generations,
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they were rounded
up and put into camps
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in order to keep us
safe from the Japanese.
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So the issue of immigration...
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In that regard, it's a good...
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I need to throw this in now.
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I was chilled a year or two ago,
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in this
president administration,
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to hear some of its spokespeople
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make a comment or a
pun that they didn't think
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there was
anything inherently wrong
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with the
detention of the Japanese,
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and we might need to do
such a thing in the future.
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Yes.
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I know the Supreme Court
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spoke on detention a while back,
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and there was even an apology
given in some reparations.
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But that's
horrible for somebody,
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even if it's just that
one functioning government,
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to think that the way ahead
holds such a possibility again.
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Horrible.
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And so immigration is
very contentious issue
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and has been off
and on for a long time
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here in the United States.
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And at times, that's even
had a religious connotation,
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the Irish Catholics,
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they've had a
couple of influxes,
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but both times, created tension
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and it caused an
upsurge in anti-Catholicism
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in what was, in
previous decades,
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more of a
nominally Protestant culture,
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which objected
deeply to Catholics coming.
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And while they were
real, historical and doctrinal
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difference between
Catholics and Protestants,
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no excuse for the
bias and even the violence
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that happened at that time.
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No, there isn't any excuse. No.
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But I think that
we're at a time now
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where we need to take
a look at how we respond
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to the whole
issue of immigration.
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And whether we're in a church
or a religious organization
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or whether we're in a
political environment,
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where we are in
the United States now
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is divided,
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there's no other way
of putting it politically,
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and in some cases, religiously.
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And so the issue when
it comes to immigration
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is that when you
look at what's going on
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at the border right now,
it's different than it was,
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say, 15 or 20 years ago.
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The majority of the people
that are coming to our borders
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for immigration,
as I've read so far,
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are people seeking asylum
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as opposed to
wanting to come here
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to get jobs and
things of that nature.
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That's changed as economies
in Mexico have gotten better.
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Well, you're talking
about the southern border.
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I'm talking about
the southern border.
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I mean, nobody pays
much attention to Canada.
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Or the ocean borders
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where boats and
planes are coming in.
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Yeah. Well, yeah. The largest...
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People come in, by the way.
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I heard a statistic,
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and I don't know
if it's accurate,
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but I will...
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And it was kind of
funny, so I'll just say it.
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The largest number
of illegal immigrants,
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people that are
here undocumented
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are people who
fly in from Canada.
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I hadn't heard from
Canada, but I know they fly in.
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Yeah.
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And they are people
that get a regular visa,
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and they overstay.
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That's the
biggest number of people,
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people that
overstay their visas.
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Yeah.
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And so, you know,
that is a big problem.
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People want to come
to the United States,
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they come to the United States,
they overstay their visa,
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and that's the
largest number of people.
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And if you're talking
about immigration as a way
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to keep people from
coming into the country
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that are going to do us harm,
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that's the
biggest number of people
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that are not
being dealt with period
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is that group of
people who fly in.
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Now the issue, well,
and the reason I brought up
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the whole divided
church or divided religion,
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how we look at
things were divided.
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I think that it's better for
us not to argue and fight about
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whether we should
have a border wall
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or not have a border wall,
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I think it's
better for us not to argue
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or the people that are
wanting to apply for asylum,
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and the only way they
can legally apply for asylum
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is to step across the border
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and present
themselves to a border guard.
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That's the only
provision that's there.
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Now you can change
the law, but it's not...
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That's not the only way
to apply for residency in US.
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Or apply for asylum. Yeah.
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The asylum
seekers on the border,
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the southern border,
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are coming from Central America,
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generally speaking.
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So the issue is,
should we really fight about
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whether they have a
legal right to be here,
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whether the
United States is full
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and we can't take anyone else
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or should we
really be looking at
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what is happening on the border
with the people that are stuck?
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I agree with you.
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I mean, we might
have opinions on it.
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But as far as the church
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and Christian or
religious sensibility,
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we should be
concerned more about
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how human beings are treated,
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I mean the
interaction of human beings.
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And so the law is what it is,
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and unless it's a law
designed to harm people,
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it's the prerogative of a nation
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and the state to set up laws
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to regulate
different activities.
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But it seems to me, and I
think you as an observer lately,
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these laws are
being administered
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in a way that's inflicting
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trauma and worse on
people's family separation.
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And you gave a statistic
in private conversation
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where someone's
saying maybe many years,
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many years before
these separated families
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get together again.
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So he had to stay
tearing families apart
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even before they
know whether or not
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their causes are going
to win the day legally.
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Yeah, the issue
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that we're trying to
concentrate on right now
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and I just say council
when it comes to working
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with this particular situation,
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as we come back to the idea of,
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it's best for us to
build partnerships with people
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and whether
they're elected officials
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or whether they're
governmental agencies
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so that we can begin
to address the issues
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of human trafficking.
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But also
specifically, when you look at
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from California to
the Gulf of Mexico,
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that's basically
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a southern border
of the United States.
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We need to be able to
begin to develop partnerships
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with people in Arizona,
with people in New Mexico,
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with people in Texas
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so that we can address the needs
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on both sides of
the border because...
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And then we can begin
to develop relationships
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on the Mexican
side of the border,
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to be able to say to them,
"We need to partner with you
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to alleviate the problems
that are happening the border,
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that whether it's education
or whether it's medical care
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or whether it's
food insecurities.
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On both sides of the border,
people can build relationships
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to make that a
more hospitable place.
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And the question
is, that cannot...
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Not the question,
you cannot do that
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if you do not see that
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we have a
responsibility as Christians
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to alleviate those
kinds of sufferings.
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Yeah, I think I
agree with you. You think?
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Well, I'm not
sure what you're saying
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that you're saying that...
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Are you including that
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we need to be part of
solving the underlying situation
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that leads to people coming?
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No, I think that right now
you have people that have come
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that 2,000 miles or however
far it is from Central America
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to the US border,
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and they're stuck there.
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So they're stuck in
dangerous situations
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where you can't...
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where we can
develop relationships
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with the Mexican
side of the border.
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From my understanding,
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there is a large
number of churches in Tijuana
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that are Seventh-day Adventist.
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As a member of the
Seventh-day Adventist Church,
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one of the things that I
can do is begin to find ways
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that I can partner with my
Seventh-day Adventist family
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as well as with governments...
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Unfortunately, I think
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that's a
reasonable encouragement,
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whether or not
it's an Adventist Church
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or whatever.
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There are many different
churches and Catholicism
00:11:05.13\00:11:07.30
is very strong in that culture,
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so there's many,
many Catholic communities.
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But whatever the denomination,
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I'm not sure you'll find that
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there's any better
sympathy for those refugees
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on the other side of
the border than this side
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because it's a part
of a class division.
00:11:21.44\00:11:27.35
And Christian to be sure,
but them versus us thinking.
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And I agree with
you on that, mate.
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And I think that it
doesn't make any difference
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whether it's which
side of the border you are,
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I think that there are people
00:11:37.39\00:11:38.99
that are coming from
Central and South America
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that wouldn't
normally leave their country
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to come to some
other place just on a whim.
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And so I think that we have
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a religious responsibility
or a moral responsibility
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to look at the
people that are there
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and do something about it.
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And I think you and I
are getting into a discussion
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that can broaden as far
as the US present treatment
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of the whole
immigration process,
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mostly on the southern border.
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I think churches and
any moral institution
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have a requirement
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to lobby and to
cry to the government
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to execute its laws
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in a humane
sensitive way to people,
00:12:20.37\00:12:24.34
not be abusing people
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because many of
them are treated,
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you know, that
started with a man
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in a Sheriff Arpaio,
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You know, he was
really treating people
00:12:33.38\00:12:35.98
badly as human beings.
00:12:36.02\00:12:39.15
No secret because he said it.
00:12:39.19\00:12:40.52
He wanted to make
life very uncomfortable
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for these people,
00:12:42.66\00:12:43.99
keeping them out
in 120 degrees sun,
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and tense whole
summer, and so on.
00:12:45.89\00:12:48.96
I think that it's
just a human charity
00:12:49.00\00:12:52.27
we need to cry out
for the abuses done
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to the less advantaged,
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in this case, these
immigrants in the US.
00:12:56.87\00:12:59.54
But on the larger
sense, I think the churches
00:12:59.57\00:13:03.24
at least can remind our society,
00:13:03.28\00:13:05.48
this is not a vacuum...
situation created in a vacuum.
00:13:05.51\00:13:10.39
Like right now,
00:13:10.42\00:13:11.75
the sudden influx
across that border is,
00:13:11.79\00:13:14.69
much of it is directly connected
00:13:14.72\00:13:17.33
to governmental
actions to destabilize
00:13:17.36\00:13:21.70
and now actively to bring
down the regime in Venezuela.
00:13:21.73\00:13:27.90
Millions of people
are leaving that country,
00:13:27.94\00:13:31.04
and the crisis is
drifting into our country,
00:13:31.07\00:13:33.21
but it's a crisis
for the entire region,
00:13:33.24\00:13:35.64
and it has a cause.
00:13:35.68\00:13:37.55
It's not moral,
but we need to remind
00:13:37.58\00:13:42.12
the uncharitable among us
00:13:42.15\00:13:44.05
and even the
government authorities
00:13:44.09\00:13:46.02
here as the Bible says,
"You reap what you sow."
00:13:46.05\00:13:50.86
Okay, and see, I
think that that's true.
00:13:50.89\00:13:53.63
And I think that we
need to remember that.
00:13:53.66\00:13:58.33
Right now, I think that we need
to hold our elected officials
00:13:58.37\00:14:01.47
accountable for
what they're doing
00:14:01.50\00:14:02.84
and how they're treating people.
00:14:02.87\00:14:04.21
However, we
also need to remember
00:14:04.24\00:14:06.47
that we have a responsibility
00:14:06.51\00:14:08.44
to alleviate the
suffering that people have.
00:14:08.48\00:14:11.31
And however, we can
build relationships to do that.
00:14:11.35\00:14:14.02
It can become a
meaningless experiment
00:14:14.05\00:14:18.29
to try and hold somebody
accountable for something
00:14:18.32\00:14:22.79
that they're not
going to do anything about.
00:14:22.82\00:14:25.93
So I think that...
00:14:25.96\00:14:27.30
Well, US, in theory,
00:14:27.33\00:14:28.96
still is governed by the people.
00:14:29.00\00:14:31.93
And if the people
realize that those acting
00:14:31.97\00:14:33.94
on their behalf have
not acted charitably to...
00:14:33.97\00:14:36.91
If we need to vote them out.
00:14:36.94\00:14:38.54
We can't require that,
and we need to be careful
00:14:38.57\00:14:40.68
it doesn't turn into
a political meddling.
00:14:40.71\00:14:43.28
But there is a
morality to the dealings
00:14:43.31\00:14:45.91
between these states.
00:14:45.95\00:14:48.12
We'll take a break
and be back shortly.
00:14:48.15\00:14:50.02