Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI190442B
|
00:04 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:06 Before the break, 00:07 we were in a discussion that is fraught 00:10 with peril in our society, 00:12 but an issue of the day that, that more and more... 00:15 When we talk about religious liberty and Christian, 00:18 particularly sensibilities and all of... 00:21 Muslims have strong issues on this topic, 00:24 particularly too. 00:25 But, you know, the growing... 00:29 civil rights, carve outs, 00:30 and social shifts 00:33 in favor of gay behavior and gay marriage 00:36 and so on is really meant that this, 00:38 it seems like an inevitable clash 00:41 between religious liberty, 00:43 and the new fans, civil rights, of this lifestyle. 00:49 I don't think it always has to be a neither odd situation. 00:53 There must be a way to defuse it a little 00:56 without acting offensively 00:57 and without compromising a faith position. 01:03 I think that individuals always have a right 01:06 to determine 01:07 who they're going to be friends with or... 01:10 Oh, absolutely. 01:12 Who they're going to associate with 01:13 or who they're going to choose to spend their time with. 01:16 However, I think that things change slightly, 01:18 from my perspective, anyway, 01:20 when you want a business and whether 01:21 or not you can discriminate against a person based on 01:25 whether or not you have 01:26 a theological difference between them. 01:28 Because the issue is with cake bakers, 01:32 and maybe this is just a simplistic way 01:33 of looking at it, 01:35 but if you're going to say 01:36 that the lifestyle of the LGBT community 01:42 is sinful, 01:43 and therefore you're not going to condone it 01:45 by doing a cake. 01:49 The question is, is that what other moral objection 01:53 are you going to have? 01:55 Are you not going to bake a cake 01:56 for people who choose to not live together 01:59 and they want to celebrate their 10th anniversary 02:01 and then choose not to be married, 02:03 and just be... 02:04 Live together which is a much more common issue today, 02:09 not only with young people, 02:11 but with people who've lost spouses. 02:13 They choose not to get married again legally, and... 02:17 By the way, while I'm thinking about it, 02:18 can I throw in two other real world situations 02:21 that I think would the absurd 02:23 on the face of a to refuse service, 02:25 but they're not radically different in concept. 02:27 What about a landscaper that's asked to landscape, 02:30 which is more than just square here, 02:32 whatever this is, you know, 02:35 designing and setting out a yard. 02:38 Such a person refuse to do it in for a household 02:42 that they disagree with their morality 02:45 or what an architect refused to design a home 02:48 for a gay couple, a Christian architect, 02:51 because they are offensive to him. 02:53 Well, I think you've chosen two really good examples 02:56 because both of those would be considered artistic 02:58 or could be. 02:59 That's why I chose them, exactly. 03:01 And so that is the main reason why the cake baker... 03:02 But it's very utilitarian. 03:04 And so why would the cake be any different? 03:07 Yes, there's, 03:08 there's an element of just not rote action, 03:12 you're investing yourself in the product. 03:14 But I don't see myself that, 03:17 you know, unless they object to saying, 03:19 you know, my dearly beloved or all that. 03:21 I don't know what they would put on cakes, 03:22 but, you know, the wording itself. 03:24 But then, again, 03:26 that's a straw man argument 03:28 because they hit a time you can't know 03:29 what the words are. 03:30 And that's its own issue probably 03:34 apart from whether you're doing the cake. 03:35 And I guess my point is that as a business owner, 03:40 it's difficult to ask a person when they come in and say, 03:44 "Are you married? 03:46 Are you living together?" 03:49 Do you drink alcohol? 03:52 Muslims would consider that offensive, 03:54 and so what other religious organizations. 03:58 And so, I think that that's when we're talking about 04:00 the public square and those sorts of things. 04:02 Now can you ask people not to come in to your store, 04:06 you can refuse service 04:07 because they're being belligerent and obnoxious? 04:10 Well, I suppose you could if you apply that across 04:12 all groups of people that come there. 04:15 But when you start saying that you can discriminate 04:17 based on your theological belief. 04:19 Where does that end? 04:21 Yes, I think it's corrosive 04:23 to normal civil interchange 04:28 and it's also corrosive to true spirituality. 04:31 And, you know, we don't know 04:33 how much of a party time guy Jesus was, 04:36 but we do know that He was severely criticized 04:39 for being a friend of publicans and sinners. 04:43 And fortunately for us, 04:45 that He was friendly to publicans and sinners. 04:47 I mean, He approached people where they were. 04:48 Yes. 04:50 But this is zero evidence. 04:51 You know, I'm just being facetious about... 04:53 What I mean is, I don't know the interchanging they had. 04:55 Right. 04:57 But it's foolish to think that Jesus was a wine brewer 05:02 and a drunken, you know, 05:04 profligate at parties. 05:06 No, of course not. 05:07 But He was around that sort of thing. 05:09 Even the party with Simon, 05:11 where the woman put the perfume, and He said, 05:13 that was a party of marginal repute, 05:18 but He was there. 05:20 I guess he showed up? Yes. 05:22 He made friends. 05:24 Since you've kind of steered it that way a little bit. 05:26 But we're looking at these particular issues. 05:31 And I talked with a young lady 05:36 that had two children walking in a community. 05:40 And as she was walking past one house, 05:42 the person called out, 05:46 "We wouldn't allow your type here," 05:49 not so long ago. 05:51 And she was a white female with mixed race children. 05:56 So she was obviously married to somebody 05:57 who was not too same as her. 06:01 And so that was in the early... 06:04 Well, since it's recently. 06:07 So the question is, 06:10 if we are like that, 06:15 the question that we, I think, have to ask ourselves 06:18 is have we really been touched 06:22 by the sacrifice that Jesus made? 06:24 Right. 06:25 This is what I'm trying to bring it back. 06:27 I mean, on one level, 06:28 it seems like a transactional religious liberty issue 06:31 in our society, and high morality, 06:34 and, you know, 06:36 and greatly unacceptable lifestyle, 06:38 you know, that's real. 06:40 And the judges and society having to deal with it, 06:43 but as a Christian, there's a spiritual element 06:49 to this that I think is easily ignored. 06:51 And in many things, 06:53 this just happens to be one issue. 06:55 And you mentioned that I've often given the example. 06:58 You run a business, 06:59 seems to me through that 07:00 door comes a grand succession of people 07:04 that are stealing from their employer, 07:06 people that are carjackers, 07:09 wife beaters, child abusers, 07:12 the whole gamut of human frailties and gross sins. 07:18 Where do you start to filter them for your acceptance 07:24 when you're running a, you know, public business. 07:26 It's fine in your life, you do associate greater 07:29 or lesser degrees. 07:31 I mean, you avoid evil. 07:32 I mean, it's one thing to, 07:34 you know, Jesus socialized with publicans and sinners, 07:37 but, you know, you don't just give your life over 07:40 to the wrong side of the tracks as a Christian. 07:43 You've got to monitor things. 07:45 And in the private life, 07:46 yes, you can make sure 07:48 you don't greatly live your life 07:50 in a bad environment. 07:53 But we can't afford to treat our fellow human beings, 07:58 any of them as lepers. 08:00 If we want them healed, we have to relate to them. 08:06 I think that we have a responsibility 08:09 to treat people like Jesus treats me, 08:11 not like He treated people in the Bible, 08:14 but how He treats me now. 08:16 And so based on what we believe that Jesus has done for us, 08:21 then I think that I have a responsibility 08:23 to treat others like Jesus treats me. 08:25 And I'll really throw a wrench into the thing on this. 08:29 This is a lifestyle choice 08:32 with high quotient of immorality 08:34 from a Bible point of view, 08:36 but the same dynamic can easily apply in the society 08:40 on religious behavior. 08:43 Someone keeps Sunday, 08:45 someone keeps Saturday, and you can... 08:47 It's been done. 08:48 You can be characterized as the grossest sinner, 08:51 the greatest danger to society 08:53 because you worship on a certain day. 08:56 It's kind of the bottom line for me in terms of 08:58 if you allow discrimination 09:00 based on your religious beliefs, 09:05 then it is going to, and can be, 09:08 and probably most likely will be 09:11 that at some point in time, for your religious beliefs 09:13 you're going to be discriminated. 09:15 But what I'm bringing the day of worship, 09:17 where that's happened, especially the further back 09:19 you get to the Middle Ages, 09:22 I will say it's my religious belief 09:24 to keep on worship on Saturday 09:26 as The Ten Commandments enjoins. 09:29 But it was characterized in those times, 09:31 no, you're not religious, 09:32 you're the greatest reprobate 09:35 and irreligious person 09:36 for not keeping the holy day. 09:38 So you're corrupt, 09:41 hell bound creature 09:43 just because you don't worship on Sunday. 09:45 It takes on that same sort of moral component 09:49 as some of these things we've started talking about, 09:51 not just as a theological difference. 09:55 We might see it is, 09:57 but in a black and white society, 10:00 to behave differently in regard to holy things, 10:04 put, makes you unclean on all levels. 10:07 And so I draw... 10:10 I think it's a direct parallel. 10:12 And I think that we kind of got a little bit away 10:15 from the cake baker, 10:16 but I think that 10:17 when we're looking at our role in society, 10:20 I think that it's our responsibility 10:21 as Christians to interact with people 10:25 in the same way that Jesus interacted with people 10:28 and to restore dignity to people in the same way 10:30 that He's restored dignity to me and everyone else. 10:33 And as we do that, 10:35 then we become closer to God and closer to our elect... 10:38 Closer to the people around us. 10:42 Reading in the Bible is certainly 10:43 some good examples of activists who made a difference. 10:47 And one of the most improbable was Saul of Tarsus. 10:50 Remember, the basic beginning of his career was very passive, 10:55 holding the courts for those that were doing a bad deed, 10:59 throwing stones at Stephen. 11:03 But once he got the message, 11:05 nothing could hold that man back. 11:08 Witnessing before kings and princes. 11:11 At one point 11:13 when he was witnessing and saying, you know, 11:14 I was not disobedient to that heavenly vision. 11:17 The King Agrippa I think it was, you're mad. 11:20 You know, you're mad. 11:22 He's doesn't mind being called mad 11:23 because he wanted to communicate. 11:26 And I think if more of us had a burning desire 11:30 to tell what's important to us, 11:32 and in this regard, religious liberty, 11:35 the sensibilities that make us Christians, 11:38 there would be no inhibition about talking to someone, 11:40 whether it's a legislator, or our neighbor, 11:43 or anybody in the community 11:45 because we're not forcing ourselves on them. 11:48 We're sharing the good news, 11:50 things that will make a positive difference 11:53 in this world. 11:56 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2019-06-28