Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
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Before the break,
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we were in a
discussion that is fraught
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with peril in our society,
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but an issue of the day
that, that more and more...
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When we talk about
religious liberty and Christian,
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particularly
sensibilities and all of...
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Muslims have strong
issues on this topic,
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particularly too.
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But, you know, the growing...
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civil rights, carve outs,
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and social shifts
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in favor of gay
behavior and gay marriage
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and so on is
really meant that this,
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it seems like
an inevitable clash
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between religious liberty,
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and the new fans, civil
rights, of this lifestyle.
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I don't think it always has
to be a neither odd situation.
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There must be a way
to defuse it a little
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without acting offensively
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and without
compromising a faith position.
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I think that
individuals always have a right
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to determine
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who they're going to
be friends with or...
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Oh, absolutely.
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Who they're
going to associate with
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or who they're going to
choose to spend their time with.
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However, I think that
things change slightly,
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from my perspective, anyway,
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when you want a
business and whether
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or not you can discriminate
against a person based on
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whether or not you have
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a theological
difference between them.
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Because the issue
is with cake bakers,
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and maybe this is
just a simplistic way
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of looking at it,
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but if you're going to say
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that the lifestyle
of the LGBT community
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is sinful,
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and therefore you're
not going to condone it
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by doing a cake.
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The question is, is that
what other moral objection
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are you going to have?
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Are you not going to bake a cake
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for people who
choose to not live together
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and they want to
celebrate their 10th anniversary
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and then choose
not to be married,
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and just be...
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Live together which is a
much more common issue today,
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not only with young people,
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but with people
who've lost spouses.
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They choose not to get
married again legally, and...
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By the way, while
I'm thinking about it,
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can I throw in two
other real world situations
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that I think would the absurd
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on the face of a
to refuse service,
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but they're not
radically different in concept.
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What about a landscaper
that's asked to landscape,
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which is more
than just square here,
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whatever this is, you know,
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designing and
setting out a yard.
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Such a person refuse to
do it in for a household
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that they disagree
with their morality
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or what an architect
refused to design a home
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for a gay couple, a
Christian architect,
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because they are
offensive to him.
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Well, I think you've
chosen two really good examples
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because both of those
would be considered artistic
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or could be.
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That's why I
chose them, exactly.
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And so that is the main
reason why the cake baker...
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But it's very utilitarian.
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And so why would the
cake be any different?
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Yes, there's,
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there's an element
of just not rote action,
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you're investing
yourself in the product.
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But I don't see myself that,
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you know, unless
they object to saying,
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you know, my dearly
beloved or all that.
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I don't know what
they would put on cakes,
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but, you know,
the wording itself.
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But then, again,
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that's a straw man argument
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because they hit a
time you can't know
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what the words are.
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And that's its
own issue probably
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apart from whether
you're doing the cake.
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And I guess my point is
that as a business owner,
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it's difficult to ask a person
when they come in and say,
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"Are you married?
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Are you living together?"
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Do you drink alcohol?
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Muslims would
consider that offensive,
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and so what other
religious organizations.
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And so, I think that
that's when we're talking about
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the public square and
those sorts of things.
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Now can you ask people
not to come in to your store,
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you can refuse service
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because they're being
belligerent and obnoxious?
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Well, I suppose you
could if you apply that across
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all groups of
people that come there.
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But when you start
saying that you can discriminate
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based on your
theological belief.
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Where does that end?
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Yes, I think it's corrosive
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to normal civil interchange
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and it's also
corrosive to true spirituality.
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And, you know, we don't know
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how much of a
party time guy Jesus was,
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but we do know that He
was severely criticized
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for being a friend of
publicans and sinners.
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And fortunately for us,
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that He was friendly
to publicans and sinners.
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I mean, He approached
people where they were.
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Yes.
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But this is zero evidence.
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You know, I'm just
being facetious about...
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What I mean is, I don't
know the interchanging they had.
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Right.
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But it's foolish to think
that Jesus was a wine brewer
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and a drunken, you know,
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profligate at parties.
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No, of course not.
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But He was around
that sort of thing.
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Even the party with Simon,
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where the woman put
the perfume, and He said,
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that was a party
of marginal repute,
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but He was there.
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I guess he showed up? Yes.
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He made friends.
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Since you've kind of steered
it that way a little bit.
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But we're looking at
these particular issues.
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And I talked with a young lady
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that had two children
walking in a community.
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And as she was
walking past one house,
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the person called out,
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"We wouldn't
allow your type here,"
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not so long ago.
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And she was a white
female with mixed race children.
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So she was
obviously married to somebody
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who was not too same as her.
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And so that was in the early...
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Well, since it's recently.
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So the question is,
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if we are like that,
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the question that we, I
think, have to ask ourselves
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is have we really been touched
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by the
sacrifice that Jesus made?
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Right.
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This is what I'm
trying to bring it back.
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I mean, on one level,
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it seems like a transactional
religious liberty issue
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in our society,
and high morality,
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and, you know,
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and greatly
unacceptable lifestyle,
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you know, that's real.
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And the judges and
society having to deal with it,
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but as a Christian,
there's a spiritual element
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to this that I
think is easily ignored.
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And in many things,
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this just
happens to be one issue.
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And you mentioned that
I've often given the example.
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You run a business,
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seems to me through that
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door comes a grand
succession of people
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that are stealing
from their employer,
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people that are carjackers,
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wife beaters, child abusers,
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the whole gamut of human
frailties and gross sins.
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Where do you start to
filter them for your acceptance
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when you're running a,
you know, public business.
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It's fine in your life,
you do associate greater
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or lesser degrees.
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I mean, you avoid evil.
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I mean, it's one thing to,
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you know, Jesus socialized
with publicans and sinners,
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but, you know, you
don't just give your life over
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to the wrong side of
the tracks as a Christian.
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You've got to monitor things.
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And in the private life,
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yes, you can make sure
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you don't greatly live your life
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in a bad environment.
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But we can't afford to
treat our fellow human beings,
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any of them as lepers.
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If we want them healed,
we have to relate to them.
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I think that we
have a responsibility
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to treat people
like Jesus treats me,
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not like He treated
people in the Bible,
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but how He treats me now.
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And so based on what we believe
that Jesus has done for us,
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then I think that I
have a responsibility
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to treat others
like Jesus treats me.
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And I'll really throw a
wrench into the thing on this.
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This is a lifestyle choice
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with high quotient of immorality
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from a Bible point of view,
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but the same dynamic can
easily apply in the society
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on religious behavior.
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Someone keeps Sunday,
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someone keeps
Saturday, and you can...
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It's been done.
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You can be characterized
as the grossest sinner,
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the greatest danger to society
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because you
worship on a certain day.
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It's kind of the
bottom line for me in terms of
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if you allow discrimination
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based on your religious beliefs,
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then it is going to, and can be,
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and probably most likely will be
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that at some point in
time, for your religious beliefs
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you're going to
be discriminated.
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But what I'm
bringing the day of worship,
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where that's happened,
especially the further back
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you get to the Middle Ages,
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I will say it's
my religious belief
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to keep on worship on Saturday
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as The Ten Commandments enjoins.
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But it was
characterized in those times,
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no, you're not religious,
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you're the greatest reprobate
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and irreligious person
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for not keeping the holy day.
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So you're corrupt,
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hell bound creature
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just because you
don't worship on Sunday.
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It takes on that same
sort of moral component
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as some of these things
we've started talking about,
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not just as a
theological difference.
00:09:51.95\00:09:55.72
We might see it is,
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but in a black
and white society,
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to behave differently
in regard to holy things,
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put, makes you
unclean on all levels.
00:10:04.17\00:10:07.54
And so I draw...
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I think it's a direct parallel.
00:10:10.57\00:10:12.87
And I think that we
kind of got a little bit away
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from the cake baker,
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but I think that
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when we're looking
at our role in society,
00:10:17.88\00:10:20.42
I think that it's
our responsibility
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as Christians to
interact with people
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in the same way that
Jesus interacted with people
00:10:25.79\00:10:28.19
and to restore dignity
to people in the same way
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that He's restored
dignity to me and everyone else.
00:10:30.89\00:10:33.76
And as we do that,
00:10:33.80\00:10:35.13
then we become closer to
God and closer to our elect...
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Closer to the people around us.
00:10:38.53\00:10:40.07
Reading in the
Bible is certainly
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some good examples of
activists who made a difference.
00:10:43.97\00:10:47.11
And one of the most
improbable was Saul of Tarsus.
00:10:47.14\00:10:50.85
Remember, the basic beginning
of his career was very passive,
00:10:50.88\00:10:55.28
holding the courts for those
that were doing a bad deed,
00:10:55.32\00:10:59.95
throwing stones at Stephen.
00:10:59.99\00:11:03.02
But once he got the message,
00:11:03.06\00:11:05.56
nothing could
hold that man back.
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Witnessing before
kings and princes.
00:11:08.43\00:11:11.93
At one point
00:11:11.97\00:11:13.30
when he was
witnessing and saying, you know,
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I was not disobedient
to that heavenly vision.
00:11:14.70\00:11:17.57
The King Agrippa I
think it was, you're mad.
00:11:17.61\00:11:20.94
You know, you're mad.
00:11:20.98\00:11:22.34
He's doesn't
mind being called mad
00:11:22.38\00:11:23.71
because he
wanted to communicate.
00:11:23.75\00:11:26.05
And I think if more of
us had a burning desire
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to tell what's important to us,
00:11:30.65\00:11:32.89
and in this
regard, religious liberty,
00:11:32.92\00:11:35.46
the sensibilities
that make us Christians,
00:11:35.49\00:11:38.59
there would be no inhibition
about talking to someone,
00:11:38.63\00:11:40.86
whether it's a
legislator, or our neighbor,
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or anybody in the community
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because we're not
forcing ourselves on them.
00:11:45.60\00:11:47.97
We're sharing the good news,
00:11:48.00\00:11:50.71
things that will
make a positive difference
00:11:50.74\00:11:53.44
in this world.
00:11:53.48\00:11:56.34
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:11:56.38\00:11:58.88