Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI190442A
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00:25 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:27 This is your program to discuss, and share, 00:30 and analyze religious liberty developments in the US 00:33 and around the world. 00:35 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:39 And my guest on the program, Dennis Seaton. 00:44 I did, of course, paused because I misnamed you 00:48 privately before. 00:49 But Dennis Seaton, we know each other very well. 00:51 We've often had discussions. 00:54 You're the director or the liaison 00:57 for Legislative Affairs 00:58 for the Church State Council in Sacramento, California. 01:02 Let's talk about 01:05 something interesting 01:07 that people are wagging about all over the country, 01:10 and especially in religious liberty circles, 01:13 especially in the so called religious right, 01:15 you know, it gets them uptight. 01:18 The biggest case to illustrate this was a cake maker 01:22 or a guy that had a cake shop where he made wedding cakes, 01:26 and a gay couple came in 01:28 and asked him to do it, and he pretty much refused. 01:32 I don't know the dialogue, 01:33 but he refused to bake it for them, 01:36 which they found offensive, 01:38 and might not have been 01:40 very charitable way to present his faith. 01:43 But he felt that it was his right. 01:44 It went to the courts. 01:46 And the Supreme Court upheld it, 01:49 but with some qualifications. 01:50 So it's not a resounding affirmation 01:54 that this is the right thing. 01:55 But they were headed that way because after the fact 01:58 he was maligned pretty badly by the gay community. 02:01 So, you know, 02:04 I think that we're trying to bring some balance. 02:05 But what do you think? 02:07 As a person of faith, in this case, as a Christian, 02:10 you have strong moral views on many things. 02:14 And in this case, there's a couple that 02:17 by their lifestyle choice 02:19 or at variance with what you hold 02:23 from a biblical basis how to live a life? 02:25 How do you relate to them as a shopkeeper? 02:28 You think he should have served them. 02:31 Personally, I feel that he should have served them. 02:33 He's put himself out there as a person 02:37 in the community to... 02:39 He has a business, 02:41 and so I think that 02:43 even a person of faith 02:46 needs to serve people 02:48 that he has differences of opinion with. 02:50 Well, let me put it another way 02:51 'cause I don't, here I'd ask this way. 02:53 How would his faith 02:56 and his principles be compromised 02:58 by performing a charitable act towards other human being? 03:03 Well, I don't know. 03:05 Let's see for him, 03:07 I think you really got from his perspective, 03:09 he's condoning on something that he sees as a sinful act. 03:14 And so by condoning it, 03:16 by making the cake, 03:17 now my understanding is that he didn't... 03:21 Not sell some cakes to them, 03:23 he just would not put his artistic talent 03:27 for a wedding cake. 03:29 And so that's, I think, where some of the rub comes from. 03:32 Yeah, that was, 03:33 but the issue was there any way that just 03:35 so there was this clinching argument. 03:37 "Well, you know, I can't. 03:39 I can't put artistic effort," 03:41 which it seems to me that's a given. 03:44 If your heart's not in it, which it shouldn't be, 03:47 you're not going to put 03:49 all the rainbow flourishes on the cake 03:53 that they might want. 03:56 But you would still do a workmanlike job. 03:59 And, you know, let me take a strange example 04:02 which no one thinks about. 04:04 But if you work in a car company 04:06 in San Francisco, 04:10 and, you know, you're supplying a certain dealership in... 04:14 Was it Haight-Ashbury, isn't that in San Francisco? 04:16 In the Haight-Ashbury district. 04:19 So, you know, that there're fair number 04:20 of those certain cars, and I won't characterize it, 04:23 but you could decide what type of cars 04:26 might be used as pimp mobiles 04:30 or to carry around nefarious moral characters, 04:34 and you can refuse to build the car 04:37 and deliver to that neighborhood. 04:41 You're in the business making cars, 04:43 not enabling bad behavior with them. 04:46 Or to even get into a cliché 04:51 of the 50s or the 60s. 04:53 If you're working in a car company, 04:55 and you're selling a car aimed at young people, 04:57 you're going to say, 04:59 "I'm not going to oppose to backseats 05:01 because backseats are bad proposition." 05:06 I think you might be going a little off. 05:07 I'm pushing it, but I think the logic is the same. 05:10 I think that the issue to me 05:12 has to do with the current issue 05:13 that we have with the LGBT community, 05:16 and whether our churches, 05:20 but not all churches believe that to be a sin. 05:23 Yes, oh, it's very plain in the Bible. 05:25 I mean, that I'm quite certain of. 05:28 It takes a higher criticism of a special nature 05:33 to diffuse those clearest statements 05:36 in both the Old and the New Testament. 05:40 That's the issue of today. 05:42 So if you look back to even as early 05:46 or late as the 1970s, 05:49 it was illegal in some states 05:51 for a white person to marry a black person. 05:54 And that was... 05:55 That's a state law 05:57 that was based on religious principles. 06:04 Well, I'll put it another way, 06:05 it was bigotry that reached 06:08 for a Bible excuse. 06:13 Well, that would be 06:17 what some people would say, 06:19 but other people would say that it was foundational 06:22 in their understanding of the Bible. 06:25 And so that's why we have different religions, 06:27 we have different ways of people looking at things. 06:30 And so foundationally, some people see 06:32 that a black person married to a white person 06:35 is not a very good thing. 06:37 The Bible does not directly speak to that, 06:40 but tangentially does. 06:43 So the question would be in today's society, 06:46 how are we going to handle it? 06:48 Now after the 1970s, 06:51 you can't discriminate against a couple 06:54 that has a mixed race in the business world. 06:58 Now churches can do whatever they want 07:00 to theoretically, 07:01 but the issue would be, 07:03 how are we going to look at a current 07:10 religious liberty position 07:13 that a business owner takes in an environment 07:16 where we have public accommodation. 07:19 You're parallel, 07:21 or the point you're making is very good, 07:22 but I can't let it go. 07:27 Racism is a hard pull from the Bible 07:30 even though it was done, 07:32 done most recently in South Africa. 07:35 The Dutch Reformed Church had a theology of apartheid. 07:40 But I think 07:41 it's from a biased reading of things. 07:44 And if you want to, 07:45 I can think of just one example of hands 07:47 that flies in the face of that pseudo biblical construct. 07:51 Moses, his wife, was dark, 07:55 right? 07:57 Remember, Miriam got leprosy 08:00 because she criticized it. 08:02 So I've never heard that mentioned, 08:05 but that's very obvious to me. 08:06 So the models 08:09 of the Old Testament, 08:10 hardly lend themselves to a racist approach. 08:18 About the most negative thing 08:19 I can think of is in the Song of Solomon, 08:24 Solomon's... 08:28 I'm trying to think how to characterize it 08:29 because it's an ambiguous poem. 08:31 But Solomon's 08:33 peasant bride says 08:36 that they make fun of her because the skin was dark. 08:40 But the facts are the king's interested in her. 08:44 But with the gay thing, it's a little different 08:46 because on that behavior, 08:50 it's not condoned by the Bible, 08:53 but what people are missing, 08:54 I think, whether it's Christianity, 08:55 or Judaism, or indeed any good religion, 08:59 it enjoins people to act humanely 09:01 and charitably toward other human beings 09:04 that supersedes everything. 09:06 But I think that we need to acknowledge 09:08 whether it is interracial marriages 09:12 or whether it has to do with the LGBT community. 09:16 Not all faith groups believe the same on that. 09:19 So for instance, if you have a state 09:22 that determines that they're not going to allow 09:24 same sex marriage based or that people do not have 09:30 or cannot perform same sex marriage, 09:33 not people but ministers, clergy, 09:38 what's going to happen then is you're going to trample 09:40 on the religious rights of those 09:44 what some say are mainline Christian 09:46 or mainline Protestant 09:49 religions that say that it's okay 09:52 to have same sex partners 09:55 and for their clergy to do marriages. 09:58 So I think that when we look at the Bible, 10:00 we have to understand that 10:02 there are going to be differences of opinion. 10:05 Now they're wrong and I'm right. 10:06 Well, you're mixing and matching a bit. 10:08 I don't think it's good 10:10 for the state to be overriding 10:13 religious sensibility is a matter of cause. 10:17 Well, but that's happening. 10:19 That happened. Yeah. 10:21 Well, whether that passed through, 10:22 I don't know if it actually made it. 10:23 And, you know, in our discussion, 10:25 I don't think we can definitively settle this, 10:27 but I think in discussing, we can open up some aspects. 10:30 And what... Or let me go back to... 10:32 Well, before you go there... 10:33 But there's a difference between a religious entity... 10:38 And an individual conscience. 10:40 And it's worth mentioning, as we say on this program 10:42 before in the United States, at least, as far as law, 10:46 it doesn't really matter what your church thinks, 10:49 your accommodation is granted because you personally 10:51 are under a conscience conviction. 10:54 Yes. 10:55 And I think that's the best way to come at it. 10:59 Because you could... 11:01 People belong to a church, and they don't exemplify 11:04 what it stands for anyway. 11:07 Or, as you mentioned, 11:09 some churches have compromised their biblical stance 11:12 on some things including sexuality, 11:16 but maybe the individual still adheres to the Bible 11:18 and is convicted to act differently 11:20 than their own church might be saying. 11:22 Doesn't matter. 11:23 No, but the... 11:25 It could be different from the church, 11:26 but still granted the religious liberty 11:27 right by the state. 11:29 So now you've come back to your original question, 11:30 should they bake... 11:32 The baker, should he be allowed to make a religious, 11:37 what he considers a moral decision, 11:39 to discriminate 11:42 against a group of people 11:46 based on his religious belief as a business owner. 11:50 Now, as in his personal life, are they different. 11:52 Well, I'm less concerned as to whether 11:56 he should be allowed or disallowed, 11:59 then why he would think 12:01 that he needs to act badly towards them? 12:06 You know, I've said it before on other programs, 12:08 and I have no particular brief on the whole gay movement. 12:12 So it's just one of many social developments 12:16 that tells me that we're in social 12:18 and moral devolution, 12:20 and that things are changing in ways 12:22 that are radically variance from the model 12:25 that the Bible encourages. 12:28 But, you know, that's often been the case. 12:35 In Christians relating to the world 12:38 and the Roman Empire, 12:40 it was far more corrupt and at variance 12:42 with Christian values than they are, 12:43 but they didn't... 12:45 I see no evidence the Christians tried 12:47 to force the civil society 12:50 to agree with their view. 12:53 They were witnessing to the world. 12:55 They were relating to other human beings. 12:57 And I think this is... 13:00 Well, it's not the legal issue of religious liberty, 13:02 I think people of faith need 13:04 to see themselves as citizens of the society not, 13:08 you know, the self righteous, 13:10 you know, person in a cave that's going to say, "Do this. 13:13 Do that. I'm not going to deal with you. 13:14 You're sinners, unclean." 13:16 There has to be a little charity 13:19 toward other people without condoning 13:22 what they're doing, but recognizing that 13:24 they're worthy of the time of day, 13:27 worthy of a cake, perhaps, worthy of whatever. 13:30 But on one level, I think this whole thing 13:33 is a bit of a red herring 13:37 because in the real world for cakes, 13:39 and photographs, and all the rest, 13:41 people go with someone simpatico. 13:43 They might not be that interested 13:45 in seeking out a Christian who's... 13:47 Even if he's willing to do 13:49 it is not really on their wavelength. 13:51 So it's a provocation. 13:53 And unfortunately, in this and other cases, 13:57 self righteous exclusive result just confirms, 14:00 oh, well, yeah, we expected that and that. 14:02 Wouldn't it be better... 14:03 Well, you know, he doesn't agree 14:05 with the choices we've made, but he was so helpful to us. 14:11 I believe that if as Christians 14:13 we are displaying 14:19 who Jesus is to people, 14:21 I think that we have to act as Jesus acted to people 14:24 that He agreed with and He didn't agree. 14:25 And Jesus was the friend of publicans and sinners. 14:27 We'll take a short break 14:28 and be back to continue this discussion. |
Revised 2019-06-28