Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is your program
to discuss, and share,
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and analyze religious
liberty developments in the US
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and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest on the
program, Dennis Seaton.
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I did, of course,
paused because I misnamed you
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privately before.
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But Dennis Seaton, we
know each other very well.
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We've often had discussions.
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You're the
director or the liaison
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for Legislative Affairs
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for the Church State Council
in Sacramento, California.
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Let's talk about
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something interesting
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that people are wagging
about all over the country,
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and especially in
religious liberty circles,
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especially in the so
called religious right,
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you know, it gets them uptight.
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The biggest case to
illustrate this was a cake maker
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or a guy that had a cake shop
where he made wedding cakes,
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and a gay couple came in
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and asked him to do it,
and he pretty much refused.
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I don't know the dialogue,
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but he refused
to bake it for them,
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which they found offensive,
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and might not have been
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very charitable way
to present his faith.
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But he felt that
it was his right.
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It went to the courts.
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And the Supreme Court upheld it,
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but with some qualifications.
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So it's not a
resounding affirmation
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that this is the right thing.
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But they were headed that
way because after the fact
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he was maligned pretty
badly by the gay community.
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So, you know,
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I think that we're
trying to bring some balance.
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But what do you think?
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As a person of faith, in
this case, as a Christian,
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you have strong
moral views on many things.
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And in this case,
there's a couple that
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by their lifestyle choice
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or at variance
with what you hold
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from a biblical
basis how to live a life?
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How do you relate to
them as a shopkeeper?
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You think he
should have served them.
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Personally, I feel that
he should have served them.
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He's put himself
out there as a person
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in the community to...
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He has a business,
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and so I think that
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even a person of faith
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needs to serve people
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that he has
differences of opinion with.
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Well, let me put it another way
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'cause I don't,
here I'd ask this way.
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How would his faith
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and his
principles be compromised
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by performing a charitable
act towards other human being?
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Well, I don't know.
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Let's see for him,
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I think you really
got from his perspective,
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he's condoning on something
that he sees as a sinful act.
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And so by condoning it,
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by making the cake,
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now my understanding
is that he didn't...
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Not sell some cakes to them,
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he just would not
put his artistic talent
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for a wedding cake.
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And so that's, I think, where
some of the rub comes from.
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Yeah, that was,
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but the issue was
there any way that just
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so there was this
clinching argument.
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"Well, you know, I can't.
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I can't put artistic effort,"
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which it seems to
me that's a given.
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If your heart's not in
it, which it shouldn't be,
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you're not going to put
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all the rainbow
flourishes on the cake
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that they might want.
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But you would still
do a workmanlike job.
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And, you know, let me
take a strange example
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which no one thinks about.
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But if you work in a car company
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in San Francisco,
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and, you know, you're supplying
a certain dealership in...
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Was it Haight-Ashbury,
isn't that in San Francisco?
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In the Haight-Ashbury district.
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So, you know, that
there're fair number
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of those certain cars,
and I won't characterize it,
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but you could
decide what type of cars
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might be used as pimp mobiles
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or to carry around
nefarious moral characters,
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and you can
refuse to build the car
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and deliver to
that neighborhood.
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You're in the
business making cars,
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not enabling bad
behavior with them.
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Or to even get into a cliché
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of the 50s or the 60s.
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If you're
working in a car company,
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and you're selling a
car aimed at young people,
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you're going to say,
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"I'm not going to
oppose to backseats
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because backseats
are bad proposition."
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I think you might
be going a little off.
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I'm pushing it, but I
think the logic is the same.
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I think that the issue to me
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has to do with the current issue
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that we have with
the LGBT community,
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and whether our churches,
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but not all churches
believe that to be a sin.
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Yes, oh, it's very
plain in the Bible.
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I mean, that I'm
quite certain of.
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It takes a higher
criticism of a special nature
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to diffuse those
clearest statements
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in both the Old
and the New Testament.
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That's the issue of today.
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So if you look
back to even as early
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or late as the 1970s,
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it was illegal in some states
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for a white person
to marry a black person.
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And that was...
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That's a state law
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that was based on
religious principles.
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Well, I'll put it another way,
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it was bigotry that reached
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for a Bible excuse.
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Well, that would be
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what some people would say,
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but other people would
say that it was foundational
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in their
understanding of the Bible.
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And so that's why we
have different religions,
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we have different ways
of people looking at things.
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And so
foundationally, some people see
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that a black person
married to a white person
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is not a very good thing.
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The Bible does not
directly speak to that,
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but tangentially does.
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So the question would
be in today's society,
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how are we going to handle it?
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Now after the 1970s,
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you can't
discriminate against a couple
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that has a mixed race
in the business world.
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Now churches can
do whatever they want
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to theoretically,
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but the issue would be,
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how are we going
to look at a current
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religious liberty position
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that a business owner
takes in an environment
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where we have
public accommodation.
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You're parallel,
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or the point you're
making is very good,
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but I can't let it go.
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Racism is a hard
pull from the Bible
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even though it was done,
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done most
recently in South Africa.
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The Dutch Reformed Church
had a theology of apartheid.
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But I think
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it's from a
biased reading of things.
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And if you want to,
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I can think of just
one example of hands
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that flies in the face of
that pseudo biblical construct.
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Moses, his wife, was dark,
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right?
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Remember, Miriam got leprosy
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because she criticized it.
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So I've never
heard that mentioned,
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but that's very obvious to me.
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So the models
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of the Old Testament,
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hardly lend
themselves to a racist approach.
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About the most negative thing
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I can think of is
in the Song of Solomon,
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Solomon's...
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I'm trying to think
how to characterize it
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because it's an ambiguous poem.
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But Solomon's
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peasant bride says
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that they make fun of her
because the skin was dark.
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But the facts are the
king's interested in her.
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But with the gay
thing, it's a little different
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because on that behavior,
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it's not condoned by the Bible,
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but what people are missing,
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I think, whether
it's Christianity,
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or Judaism, or
indeed any good religion,
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it enjoins
people to act humanely
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and charitably
toward other human beings
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that supersedes everything.
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But I think that
we need to acknowledge
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whether it is
interracial marriages
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or whether it has to do
with the LGBT community.
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Not all faith groups
believe the same on that.
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So for instance,
if you have a state
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that determines that
they're not going to allow
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same sex marriage based
or that people do not have
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or cannot perform
same sex marriage,
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not people but
ministers, clergy,
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what's going to happen
then is you're going to trample
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on the religious rights of those
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what some say are
mainline Christian
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or mainline Protestant
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religions that
say that it's okay
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to have same sex partners
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and for their
clergy to do marriages.
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So I think that when
we look at the Bible,
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we have to understand that
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there are going to be
differences of opinion.
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Now they're wrong and I'm right.
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Well, you're
mixing and matching a bit.
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I don't think it's good
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for the state to be overriding
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religious sensibility
is a matter of cause.
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Well, but that's happening.
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That happened. Yeah.
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Well, whether
that passed through,
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I don't know if
it actually made it.
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And, you know,
in our discussion,
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I don't think we can
definitively settle this,
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but I think in discussing,
we can open up some aspects.
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And what... Or
let me go back to...
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Well, before you go there...
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But there's a difference
between a religious entity...
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And an individual conscience.
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And it's worth mentioning,
as we say on this program
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before in the United
States, at least, as far as law,
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it doesn't really
matter what your church thinks,
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your accommodation is
granted because you personally
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are under a
conscience conviction.
00:10:51.81\00:10:54.22
Yes.
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And I think that's the
best way to come at it.
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Because you could...
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People belong to a
church, and they don't exemplify
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what it stands for anyway.
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Or, as you mentioned,
00:11:07.86\00:11:09.30
some churches have compromised
their biblical stance
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on some things
including sexuality,
00:11:12.60\00:11:16.04
but maybe the individual
still adheres to the Bible
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and is convicted
to act differently
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than their own
church might be saying.
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Doesn't matter.
00:11:22.51\00:11:23.85
No, but the...
00:11:23.88\00:11:25.21
It could be
different from the church,
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but still granted
the religious liberty
00:11:26.61\00:11:27.95
right by the state.
00:11:27.98\00:11:29.32
So now you've come back
to your original question,
00:11:29.35\00:11:30.69
should they bake...
00:11:30.72\00:11:32.65
The baker, should he be
allowed to make a religious,
00:11:32.69\00:11:37.09
what he
considers a moral decision,
00:11:37.13\00:11:39.53
to discriminate
00:11:39.56\00:11:42.66
against a group of people
00:11:42.70\00:11:46.53
based on his religious
belief as a business owner.
00:11:46.57\00:11:50.47
Now, as in his personal
life, are they different.
00:11:50.51\00:11:52.91
Well, I'm less
concerned as to whether
00:11:52.94\00:11:56.68
he should be
allowed or disallowed,
00:11:56.71\00:11:59.61
then why he would think
00:11:59.65\00:12:01.05
that he needs to
act badly towards them?
00:12:01.08\00:12:06.15
You know, I've said it
before on other programs,
00:12:06.19\00:12:08.16
and I have no particular
brief on the whole gay movement.
00:12:08.19\00:12:12.29
So it's just one of
many social developments
00:12:12.33\00:12:16.10
that tells me
that we're in social
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and moral devolution,
00:12:18.87\00:12:20.40
and that things
are changing in ways
00:12:20.44\00:12:22.17
that are radically
variance from the model
00:12:22.20\00:12:25.61
that the Bible encourages.
00:12:25.64\00:12:28.58
But, you know,
that's often been the case.
00:12:28.61\00:12:31.65
In Christians
relating to the world
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and the Roman Empire,
00:12:38.39\00:12:40.42
it was far more
corrupt and at variance
00:12:40.46\00:12:42.09
with Christian
values than they are,
00:12:42.12\00:12:43.89
but they didn't...
00:12:43.93\00:12:45.26
I see no evidence
the Christians tried
00:12:45.29\00:12:47.10
to force the civil society
00:12:47.13\00:12:50.67
to agree with their view.
00:12:50.70\00:12:53.07
They were
witnessing to the world.
00:12:53.10\00:12:55.10
They were relating
to other human beings.
00:12:55.14\00:12:57.87
And I think this is...
00:12:57.91\00:13:00.08
Well, it's not the legal
issue of religious liberty,
00:13:00.11\00:13:02.38
I think people of faith need
00:13:02.41\00:13:04.11
to see themselves as
citizens of the society not,
00:13:04.15\00:13:08.25
you know, the self righteous,
00:13:08.28\00:13:10.72
you know, person in a cave
that's going to say, "Do this.
00:13:10.75\00:13:13.05
Do that. I'm not
going to deal with you.
00:13:13.09\00:13:14.42
You're sinners, unclean."
00:13:14.46\00:13:16.83
There has to be a little charity
00:13:16.86\00:13:19.63
toward other
people without condoning
00:13:19.66\00:13:22.86
what they're doing,
but recognizing that
00:13:22.90\00:13:24.63
they're worthy
of the time of day,
00:13:24.67\00:13:27.20
worthy of a cake,
perhaps, worthy of whatever.
00:13:27.24\00:13:30.44
But on one level, I
think this whole thing
00:13:30.47\00:13:33.48
is a bit of a red herring
00:13:33.51\00:13:37.45
because in the
real world for cakes,
00:13:37.48\00:13:39.51
and photographs,
and all the rest,
00:13:39.55\00:13:41.02
people go with
someone simpatico.
00:13:41.05\00:13:43.22
They might not
be that interested
00:13:43.25\00:13:45.69
in seeking out a
Christian who's...
00:13:45.72\00:13:47.69
Even if he's willing to do
00:13:47.72\00:13:49.46
it is not really
on their wavelength.
00:13:49.49\00:13:51.19
So it's a provocation.
00:13:51.23\00:13:53.33
And unfortunately,
in this and other cases,
00:13:53.36\00:13:57.10
self righteous
exclusive result just confirms,
00:13:57.13\00:14:00.20
oh, well, yeah, we
expected that and that.
00:14:00.24\00:14:02.04
Wouldn't it be better...
00:14:02.07\00:14:03.41
Well, you know, he doesn't agree
00:14:03.44\00:14:05.57
with the choices we've made,
but he was so helpful to us.
00:14:05.61\00:14:08.31
I believe that if as Christians
00:14:11.35\00:14:13.92
we are displaying
00:14:13.95\00:14:19.82
who Jesus is to people,
00:14:19.85\00:14:21.56
I think that we have to
act as Jesus acted to people
00:14:21.59\00:14:24.19
that He agreed with
and He didn't agree.
00:14:24.23\00:14:25.56
And Jesus was the friend
of publicans and sinners.
00:14:25.59\00:14:27.50
We'll take a short break
00:14:27.53\00:14:28.86
and be back to
continue this discussion.
00:14:28.90\00:14:30.43