Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI190440B
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00:04 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:06 Before the break, 00:08 with my guest Dennis Seaton, 00:11 we were getting into some real interesting territory, 00:14 perhaps with no good answer for this program, 00:17 but you were mentioning legislative initiatives 00:20 on assisted suicide. 00:24 I think it has huge ramifications 00:26 but generally the churches don't get much into it, 00:31 but there is a moral question taken, 00:34 the Bible taken just at straight face value, 00:39 we'd have to oppose suicide even self inflicted 00:42 or I mean on themselves, but, you know, 00:43 may ever determination of someone for reasons 00:46 that they are suffering too much or whatever, 00:48 but the Bible doesn't seem to allow for that, does it? 00:51 It doesn't. 00:53 From a church perspective, it does, no, 00:55 it does not allow for suicide. 00:57 We believe that life is sanctified, 01:00 life is important, and we do not want to... 01:03 You know, we're the temple of God, 01:04 we're custodians of the life God's given us 01:06 and to terminate seems irresponsible. 01:09 I must admit the older I get, 01:11 I am more sympathetic to Samson saying, 01:14 Saul even, at that point did pretty much 01:18 become a reprobate from God 01:20 but brave soldier and things were lost, 01:23 he was mortally wounded and he has his 01:26 armor bearer running through, remember that? 01:29 Right. 01:30 Technically suicide but, 01:32 you know, 01:34 in his case he probably would have been savaged 01:36 and brutalized and then beheaded by the enemy 01:38 when they caught up with him, 01:39 so it seems the rational act in that context. 01:43 So what I hear you saying to me is that the Bible says, 01:47 no, suicide is not good, 01:48 but now you've just pointed out something 01:50 that said that suicide is permissible 01:52 under certain circumstances. 01:54 Well that's, I don't know, we can't settle in here 01:56 but this is the ambiguity that comes into my mind and, 01:59 you know, someone has a terminal illness 02:03 that might involve worsening pain 02:06 and deteriorating standard of living, 02:09 and the doctors make this choice all the time. 02:11 They withhold treatment because it's, 02:13 they gonna depilate for whatever but fine, 02:16 fine kill us. 02:17 It's all in the same sort of spectrum 02:19 that where there's mercy involved 02:22 rather than determination, 02:25 cut a life short 02:27 but the danger it seems to me is once you give 02:30 a legal right in particularly to the state, 02:33 we know what happened in World War II 02:36 where the Nazis, they had a statement, 02:40 life without meaning. 02:42 Certain mental defectives 02:44 or people that are severely crippled 02:47 and disadvantage that they couldn't have 02:49 a fulfilled life, life without meaning, so, 02:52 terminate them. 02:54 Now, that doesn't pass biblical muster 02:57 or I think true responsible society, 03:00 so this is the danger I see where churches 03:02 could help clarify the issue 03:06 and warn against the state drifting toward 03:10 institutionalized murder in essence 03:12 even if the person involved is agreeable. 03:16 They put safeguards in, 03:19 or what they say, safeguards in terms of whether 03:21 or not a person can actually take advantage 03:24 of the law to end their life and so there is, 03:27 they have to have a doctor's approval, 03:29 they have to have a psychologist, 03:30 psychiatrist approval. 03:32 If anything, not necessarily adamantly opposed 03:33 but I am very coercive on it. 03:35 When I was young, 03:38 I am from Australia originally 03:40 and there's different stories 03:41 that's to Australians and English and so on, 03:44 and I saw a film on Scott of the Antarctic. 03:47 There's an English explorer 03:48 that wanted to get to the South Pole 03:51 which he did but just a couple of days after... 03:53 I know you got some. 03:54 No video. No video? 03:56 Yeah. 03:57 Background, Amundsen medium to it, 03:59 left a note at the South Pole. 04:00 And poor old Scott had pushed on 04:03 with just a couple of companions to get there, 04:05 made it but couldn't get back. 04:07 They were reduced to pulling their own sled, 04:09 ran out of food and at one point they camped 04:11 in a blizzard that went forever. 04:13 Freezing to death in their tent 04:16 and Oates I think was the second in command 04:19 had frostbite, was slowing them down 04:21 and because it looked like, and they didn't, 04:23 they might not get their next step out. 04:25 So he walks out into the snow purposely, 04:29 killed himself to save his friend. 04:32 And that kind of takes me back to your statement initially 04:35 about the biblical story, 04:39 and I guess that is the route 04:41 of when you are looking at situations like this 04:44 or issues like this, is this, 04:46 that where does a person's right to make choices 04:49 fall based on the government's 04:51 right or responsibility to prohibit them 04:54 from doing certain things, 04:56 and that's where it becomes very, very difficult. 04:59 And when you begin to look at legislatures now, 05:01 you see them more as secular organizations, 05:07 but they have people that are very religious minded, 05:12 there are politicians, 05:14 but then again you see across of United States, 05:18 and you know in various different states 05:21 that are, the legislatures are passing laws, 05:24 you know, whether it'd be assisted suicide 05:26 or whether it'd be prevention or not preventing... 05:34 the types 05:36 of the ability for people 05:41 to have their children go into certain types 05:44 of medical procedures in order to get... 05:49 So in other words, do you think 05:50 the state is taking 05:52 more control of these situations 05:53 that before was more of an individual choice? 05:56 Well, I think it was. 05:57 That was a moral criteria applied. 05:59 Well, when you are looking at their medical field, 06:01 it seems to me like that in today's society that 06:03 people live longer because of the medical care 06:05 that they do have 06:07 or the ones that don't have, they live less long. 06:09 So if you're a person who works in a field 06:11 in a type of job 06:15 that puts them in manual labor and they don't get paid well 06:19 and they don't have any kind of health care, 06:21 their life outcomes are shorter 06:24 than those of us who have health care. 06:26 So when you look at that now as to whether or not 06:29 a person should be allowed to terminate their life. 06:32 Well, when my grandparents were alive 06:37 and when they were growing up and when they were small, 06:39 the life outcomes were not what they are now. 06:42 So my grandmother died in her early 60's. 06:45 And so, now we have people who linger on 06:48 in illnesses for decades 06:51 because we have the ability to do that. 06:53 And the question is, 06:54 should those people be allowed to make a decision 06:56 to end their life? 06:57 Now biblically apparently, it is okay to do that 07:00 because it's okay if people are going to ravage, 07:03 can cut your head off 07:05 and those are two things. 07:06 Well, I am not sure the Bible story says it's okay. 07:09 Are you sure? 07:11 It tells the story. Okay. 07:13 And I deduced from that 07:14 and you're referring to souls 'cause 07:17 I deduced from that, that was at least, 07:20 it wasn't a nihilistic act, 07:23 it was an act of a certain rationality. 07:25 But Samson did the same thing. 07:27 Yes. 07:28 And Samson's was a little more 07:31 contemporary if not Christianity, 07:33 then you might think of Islamic radicalism 07:35 because he decided it was worth dying 07:38 if he could bring down the whole house 07:40 on top of the Philistines, his archenemies, 07:43 with the prayer. 07:45 But then it still goes back. 07:46 It still goes back to the issue, 07:49 I think, Lincoln. 07:52 When we look at society today, 07:56 you know, and when we look at American society 07:58 versus societies outside of America 08:01 and so, you're looking at countries 08:03 that there the outcomes for people, 08:07 their life expectancy 08:08 is not nearly as great as it is in countries 08:11 that have really good health care. 08:12 Let me really throw one at, since you, 08:14 I know you deal with this, 08:16 you have to, keeping an eye on the legislature. 08:19 There are many bills 08:21 that relate one way or another to health care 08:25 insurance and so on has come up, 08:27 and the federal government is gonna revisit it 08:29 if the president has his way. 08:31 It seems to me, 08:32 the insurance companies in the United States 08:35 make life or death decisions. 08:36 Every day. 08:38 They decide, no, we're not gonna 08:39 cover this for this person for any number of reasons, 08:43 maybe they see it as an elective thing 08:45 and then perhaps there's not a life or death deal, 08:47 but I know myself in our own family things 08:51 that are of major health importance, 08:54 they decide it's not worth doing, 08:57 but clearly the insurance companies 08:59 are gonna make a decision on an elderly person say 09:01 with a preexisting, 09:03 say a terminal cancer 09:04 and then they get some other thing, 09:06 they're not necessarily gonna cover that. 09:08 So they've made a hugely moral choice that may, 09:12 in many ways directly terminate that life. 09:17 Is this of no concern to religious liberty 09:20 and church sensibility that the state might be entering, 09:24 allowing insurance companies to enter them. 09:27 I think that it's moral issue 09:29 and that we need to look at, 09:31 however that's not the responsibility 09:34 of the church state council 09:37 to address those particular issues. 09:40 However that doesn't mean that we shouldn't talk about them. 09:43 Well, I am asking, you know, 09:44 yes, it's worth mentioning your charter 09:47 but he was someone that's involved with this, 09:49 so we talk about your opinion, you know, not everything 09:51 that you and I say 09:53 should be judged as official pronouncement 09:56 per se of our church or of your employing aspect, 10:02 I mean, it shouldn't be at variance, 10:04 but this is a personal discussion. 10:05 Well, in the personal discussion... 10:07 So based on the, 10:09 you know, the contact that you have, 10:12 and what's at play, 10:13 and I guess we are getting it narrowed down. 10:15 Life and death issues that have a moral component should... 10:19 Is it, you're comfortable with the state 10:22 or insurance companies outside the individual making a choice 10:26 or short circuiting what the individual should make. 10:31 I think that the individual should have 10:33 the right to make the decisions 10:34 that they feel is best for them 10:39 but when you're talking about the, 10:42 my decisions, I think that the decisions I make, 10:45 I have to understand that 10:47 they are going to impact a larger group of people, 10:50 the people I live around, my family, whoever. 10:52 And I think that we need to be cognizant of that 10:54 when it comes to the decisions that we make every day, 10:57 whether it's for vaccinations, 10:59 whether it's when I die 11:00 or whether it's how I relate to people 11:02 that are different than I am. 11:03 So I think that that's the goal 11:05 for us is to make sure 11:08 that we are making the right decision 11:11 for us personally but also 11:12 for those people around us. 11:16 The images of government contact varied 11:19 and I live close by Washington DC, 11:21 and I can remember well a certain Abraham off, 11:25 led of literally in chains for his improper lobbying, 11:30 but yet there is a legitimate contact 11:32 that we called to make with legislators. 11:35 I also have gone online 11:37 and seen quite negative footage 11:40 of certain church representatives 11:45 embracing fulsomely figures 11:48 that their own prophetic outline would say, 11:50 you know shouldn't be dealt with 11:52 but in between 11:54 is what the gospel requires each of us to do, 11:57 to speak out and to witness and to communicate 12:00 and what our guest on this program portrayed 12:03 is what his church, 12:04 my church does legitimately 12:07 make contacts with government representatives, 12:09 the people's representatives to inform them 12:12 of our faith position, 12:16 perhaps even to change their mind 12:17 but certainly as an informed legislator, 12:21 they can keep that in mind as they administer 12:23 the laws for the public 12:24 with a mind to a certain people of faith 12:27 and their particular needs and requirements 12:30 living in the larger community. 12:33 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2019-06-14