Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
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Before the break,
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with my guest Dennis Seaton,
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we were getting into some
real interesting territory,
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perhaps with no good
answer for this program,
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but you were mentioning
legislative initiatives
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on assisted suicide.
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I think it has
huge ramifications
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but generally the
churches don't get much into it,
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but there is a
moral question taken,
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the Bible taken just
at straight face value,
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we'd have to oppose
suicide even self inflicted
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or I mean on
themselves, but, you know,
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may ever determination
of someone for reasons
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that they are
suffering too much or whatever,
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but the Bible doesn't seem
to allow for that, does it?
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It doesn't.
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From a church
perspective, it does, no,
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it does not allow for suicide.
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We believe that
life is sanctified,
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life is important,
and we do not want to...
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You know, we're
the temple of God,
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we're custodians of
the life God's given us
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and to terminate
seems irresponsible.
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I must admit the older I get,
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I am more
sympathetic to Samson saying,
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Saul even, at that
point did pretty much
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become a reprobate from God
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but brave soldier
and things were lost,
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he was mortally
wounded and he has his
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armor bearer running
through, remember that?
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Right.
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Technically suicide but,
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you know,
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in his case he
probably would have been savaged
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and brutalized and
then beheaded by the enemy
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when they caught up with him,
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so it seems the
rational act in that context.
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So what I hear you saying
to me is that the Bible says,
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no, suicide is not good,
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but now you've just
pointed out something
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that said that
suicide is permissible
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under certain circumstances.
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Well that's, I don't
know, we can't settle in here
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but this is the ambiguity
that comes into my mind and,
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you know, someone
has a terminal illness
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that might
involve worsening pain
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and deteriorating
standard of living,
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and the doctors make
this choice all the time.
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They withhold
treatment because it's,
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they gonna depilate
for whatever but fine,
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fine kill us.
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It's all in the
same sort of spectrum
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that where
there's mercy involved
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rather than determination,
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cut a life short
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but the danger it
seems to me is once you give
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a legal right in
particularly to the state,
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we know what
happened in World War II
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where the Nazis,
they had a statement,
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life without meaning.
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Certain mental defectives
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or people that
are severely crippled
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and disadvantage
that they couldn't have
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a fulfilled life,
life without meaning, so,
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terminate them.
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Now, that doesn't
pass biblical muster
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or I think true
responsible society,
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so this is the
danger I see where churches
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could help clarify the issue
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and warn against the
state drifting toward
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institutionalized
murder in essence
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even if the person
involved is agreeable.
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They put safeguards in,
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or what they say,
safeguards in terms of whether
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or not a person can
actually take advantage
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of the law to end
their life and so there is,
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they have to have
a doctor's approval,
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they have to
have a psychologist,
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psychiatrist approval.
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If anything, not
necessarily adamantly opposed
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but I am very coercive on it.
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When I was young,
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I am from Australia originally
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and there's different stories
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that's to Australians
and English and so on,
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and I saw a film on
Scott of the Antarctic.
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There's an English explorer
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that wanted to
get to the South Pole
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which he did but just
a couple of days after...
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I know you got some.
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No video. No video?
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Yeah.
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Background,
Amundsen medium to it,
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left a note at the South Pole.
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And poor old Scott had pushed on
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with just a couple of
companions to get there,
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made it but couldn't get back.
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They were reduced to
pulling their own sled,
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ran out of food and
at one point they camped
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in a blizzard that went forever.
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Freezing to death in their tent
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and Oates I think
was the second in command
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had frostbite,
was slowing them down
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and because it looked
like, and they didn't,
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they might not get
their next step out.
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So he walks out
into the snow purposely,
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killed himself
to save his friend.
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And that kind of takes me
back to your statement initially
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about the biblical story,
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and I guess that is the route
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of when you are
looking at situations like this
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or issues like this, is this,
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that where does a
person's right to make choices
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fall based on the government's
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right or
responsibility to prohibit them
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from doing certain things,
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and that's where it
becomes very, very difficult.
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And when you begin to
look at legislatures now,
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you see them more as
secular organizations,
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but they have people that
are very religious minded,
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there are politicians,
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but then again you see
across of United States,
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and you know in
various different states
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that are, the
legislatures are passing laws,
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you know, whether
it'd be assisted suicide
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or whether it'd be
prevention or not preventing...
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the types
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of the ability for people
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to have their
children go into certain types
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of medical
procedures in order to get...
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So in other words, do you think
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the state is taking
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more control of these situations
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that before was more
of an individual choice?
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Well, I think it was.
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That was a moral
criteria applied.
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Well, when you are
looking at their medical field,
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it seems to me like
that in today's society that
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people live longer
because of the medical care
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that they do have
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or the ones that don't
have, they live less long.
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So if you're a
person who works in a field
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in a type of job
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that puts them in manual labor
and they don't get paid well
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and they don't have
any kind of health care,
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their life outcomes are shorter
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than those of us
who have health care.
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So when you look at
that now as to whether or not
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a person should be
allowed to terminate their life.
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Well, when my
grandparents were alive
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and when they were growing
up and when they were small,
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the life outcomes
were not what they are now.
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So my grandmother
died in her early 60's.
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And so, now we have
people who linger on
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in illnesses for decades
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because we have
the ability to do that.
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And the question is,
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should those people be
allowed to make a decision
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to end their life?
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Now biblically apparently,
it is okay to do that
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because it's okay if
people are going to ravage,
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can cut your head off
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and those are two things.
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Well, I am not sure the
Bible story says it's okay.
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Are you sure?
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It tells the story. Okay.
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And I deduced from that
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and you're
referring to souls 'cause
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I deduced from
that, that was at least,
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it wasn't a nihilistic act,
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it was an act of a
certain rationality.
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But Samson did the same thing.
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Yes.
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And Samson's was a little more
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contemporary if
not Christianity,
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then you might think
of Islamic radicalism
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because he
decided it was worth dying
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if he could bring
down the whole house
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on top of the
Philistines, his archenemies,
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with the prayer.
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But then it still goes back.
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It still goes back to the issue,
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I think, Lincoln.
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When we look at society today,
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you know, and when we
look at American society
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versus societies
outside of America
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and so, you're
looking at countries
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that there the
outcomes for people,
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their life expectancy
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is not nearly as
great as it is in countries
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that have really
good health care.
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Let me really
throw one at, since you,
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I know you deal with this,
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you have to, keeping
an eye on the legislature.
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There are many bills
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that relate one way
or another to health care
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insurance and so on has come up,
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and the federal
government is gonna revisit it
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if the president has his way.
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It seems to me,
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the insurance
companies in the United States
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make life or death decisions.
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Every day.
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They decide, no, we're not gonna
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cover this for this person
for any number of reasons,
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maybe they see it
as an elective thing
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and then perhaps there's
not a life or death deal,
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but I know myself in
our own family things
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that are of major
health importance,
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they decide
it's not worth doing,
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but clearly the
insurance companies
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are gonna make a decision
on an elderly person say
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with a preexisting,
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say a terminal cancer
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and then they
get some other thing,
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they're not
necessarily gonna cover that.
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So they've made a
hugely moral choice that may,
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in many ways
directly terminate that life.
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Is this of no
concern to religious liberty
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and church sensibility that
the state might be entering,
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allowing insurance
companies to enter them.
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I think that it's moral issue
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and that we need to look at,
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however that's
not the responsibility
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of the church state council
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to address those
particular issues.
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However that doesn't mean that
we shouldn't talk about them.
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Well, I am asking, you know,
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yes, it's worth
mentioning your charter
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but he was someone
that's involved with this,
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so we talk about your opinion,
you know, not everything
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that you and I say
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should be judged as
official pronouncement
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per se of our church or
of your employing aspect,
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I mean, it
shouldn't be at variance,
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but this is a
personal discussion.
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Well, in the
personal discussion...
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So based on the,
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you know, the
contact that you have,
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and what's at play,
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and I guess we are
getting it narrowed down.
00:10:13.88\00:10:15.31
Life and death issues that
have a moral component should...
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Is it, you're
comfortable with the state
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or insurance companies outside
the individual making a choice
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or short circuiting what
the individual should make.
00:10:26.76\00:10:31.03
I think that the
individual should have
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the right to make the decisions
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that they feel is best for them
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but when you're
talking about the,
00:10:39.67\00:10:42.70
my decisions, I think
that the decisions I make,
00:10:42.74\00:10:45.91
I have to understand that
00:10:45.94\00:10:47.48
they are going to impact
a larger group of people,
00:10:47.51\00:10:50.11
the people I live
around, my family, whoever.
00:10:50.15\00:10:52.81
And I think that we
need to be cognizant of that
00:10:52.85\00:10:54.75
when it comes to the decisions
that we make every day,
00:10:54.78\00:10:57.42
whether it's for vaccinations,
00:10:57.45\00:10:59.19
whether it's when I die
00:10:59.22\00:11:00.59
or whether it's
how I relate to people
00:11:00.62\00:11:02.32
that are different than I am.
00:11:02.36\00:11:03.76
So I think that that's the goal
00:11:03.79\00:11:05.86
for us is to make sure
00:11:05.89\00:11:08.13
that we are
making the right decision
00:11:08.16\00:11:11.43
for us personally but also
00:11:11.47\00:11:12.80
for those people around us.
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The images of
government contact varied
00:11:16.87\00:11:19.74
and I live close
by Washington DC,
00:11:19.77\00:11:21.94
and I can remember
well a certain Abraham off,
00:11:21.98\00:11:25.15
led of literally in chains
for his improper lobbying,
00:11:25.18\00:11:30.12
but yet there is
a legitimate contact
00:11:30.15\00:11:32.15
that we called to
make with legislators.
00:11:32.19\00:11:35.09
I also have gone online
00:11:35.12\00:11:37.13
and seen quite negative footage
00:11:37.16\00:11:40.66
of certain
church representatives
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embracing fulsomely figures
00:11:45.50\00:11:48.30
that their own
prophetic outline would say,
00:11:48.34\00:11:50.91
you know shouldn't be dealt with
00:11:50.94\00:11:52.77
but in between
00:11:52.81\00:11:54.24
is what the gospel
requires each of us to do,
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to speak out and to
witness and to communicate
00:11:57.15\00:12:00.22
and what our guest on
this program portrayed
00:12:00.25\00:12:03.52
is what his church,
00:12:03.55\00:12:04.89
my church does legitimately
00:12:04.92\00:12:07.02
make contacts with
government representatives,
00:12:07.06\00:12:09.82
the people's
representatives to inform them
00:12:09.86\00:12:12.76
of our faith position,
00:12:12.79\00:12:16.03
perhaps even to
change their mind
00:12:16.06\00:12:17.77
but certainly as an
informed legislator,
00:12:17.80\00:12:21.30
they can keep that in
mind as they administer
00:12:21.34\00:12:23.30
the laws for the public
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with a mind to a
certain people of faith
00:12:24.81\00:12:27.51
and their particular
needs and requirements
00:12:27.54\00:12:30.21
living in the larger community.
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For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:12:33.75\00:12:36.62