Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:00:25.12\00:00:26.86
This is your program
00:00:26.89\00:00:28.32
that brings news, views
00:00:28.36\00:00:29.86
and up-to-date
information on religious liberty
00:00:29.89\00:00:32.36
in the US and around the world.
00:00:32.39\00:00:34.33
My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty magazine.
00:00:34.36\00:00:38.73
Recently, I had an opportunity
to interview Elder Ted Wilson,
00:00:38.77\00:00:43.91
world president of the
Seventh-day Adventist Church.
00:00:43.94\00:00:47.34
We discussed the Reformation
00:00:47.38\00:00:49.58
and then took the
conversation further
00:00:49.61\00:00:52.28
to what religious liberty
00:00:52.31\00:00:54.62
and the impact of
the Reformation means
00:00:54.65\00:00:56.82
to Christians today.
00:00:56.85\00:00:59.25
Watch this interview,
00:00:59.29\00:01:00.62
I think you find it interesting.
00:01:00.66\00:01:03.43
Hello, Elder Wilson.
00:01:03.46\00:01:04.79
Last time, we spoke
about religious liberty.
00:01:04.83\00:01:07.73
It was a very good
discussion on the Reformation.
00:01:07.76\00:01:10.93
And time flies by,
now it's a couple of years
00:01:10.97\00:01:13.40
since the world
remembered the Reformation,
00:01:13.44\00:01:15.94
at least as
defined by Martin Luther.
00:01:15.97\00:01:18.41
But I'd like to
talk a little bit
00:01:18.44\00:01:20.18
further with you
on the Reformation
00:01:20.21\00:01:22.28
and how Seventh-day
Adventists linked to that
00:01:22.31\00:01:24.91
and then in particular,
00:01:24.95\00:01:26.31
why we see that
this present time
00:01:26.35\00:01:29.08
as perhaps bringing a crisis
00:01:29.12\00:01:30.62
that some of the
reformers expected
00:01:30.65\00:01:32.79
and some of those
00:01:32.82\00:01:35.16
early Protestants
in the United States
00:01:35.19\00:01:37.33
during the First
Great Awakenings.
00:01:37.36\00:01:40.36
We know why we sort of living
00:01:40.40\00:01:42.13
in the
fulfillment of their dreams
00:01:42.16\00:01:44.07
and some of their fears too?
00:01:44.10\00:01:45.50
Well, it'll be a
privilege, Lincoln,
00:01:45.53\00:01:47.20
to kind of get into that.
00:01:47.24\00:01:49.87
Who was your greatest reformer,
00:01:49.90\00:01:51.87
the figure that you sort
of look to in the Reformation?
00:01:51.91\00:01:55.38
I certainly, greatly
admire Martin Luther,
00:01:55.41\00:01:59.38
of course, as we
all do, John Knox,
00:01:59.41\00:02:04.15
and actually Jan Hus, John Hus.
00:02:04.19\00:02:10.16
Lot of Johns in the Reformation.
00:02:10.19\00:02:11.69
Yeah.
00:02:11.73\00:02:13.53
He was, of course,
kind of the foundation
00:02:13.56\00:02:17.50
of the Reformation.
00:02:17.53\00:02:18.87
God used him in
an incredible way,
00:02:18.90\00:02:20.87
even at his death,
00:02:20.90\00:02:22.24
perhaps even more at his
death than any other time.
00:02:22.27\00:02:24.57
Right.
00:02:24.61\00:02:25.94
There's a reason I
want to talk about this
00:02:25.97\00:02:27.31
because I think
there was a misapprehension
00:02:27.34\00:02:29.84
for many people
00:02:29.88\00:02:31.21
who don't know the history well,
00:02:31.25\00:02:32.58
and he and Martin
Luther was brought forward,
00:02:32.61\00:02:34.48
there was a lot
more to the Reformation
00:02:34.52\00:02:36.08
than Martin Luther.
00:02:36.12\00:02:37.45
Yes.
00:02:37.49\00:02:38.82
And another
John, John Wycliffe...
00:02:38.85\00:02:40.19
Absolutely.
00:02:40.22\00:02:41.56
In England that
was 150 years before.
00:02:41.59\00:02:43.26
Preparing the way.
00:02:43.29\00:02:44.63
And he had some
of the same issues.
00:02:44.66\00:02:47.30
Remember, he didn't like
the control of the church,
00:02:47.33\00:02:49.73
he didn't like its idolatry,
00:02:49.76\00:02:52.73
the indulgences, the same thing.
00:02:52.77\00:02:55.40
And the need for the word
00:02:55.44\00:02:56.94
that was so
central in every reformer.
00:02:56.97\00:02:59.37
With the Wycliffe
translation and his followers,
00:02:59.41\00:03:02.48
the Lollards, pretty much
changed the face of England
00:03:02.51\00:03:05.55
and I think,
prepared the way very clearly
00:03:05.58\00:03:07.78
for the English Reformation.
00:03:07.82\00:03:09.42
And your hero John Hus
was a follower of Wycliffe.
00:03:09.45\00:03:13.02
Yeah.
00:03:13.05\00:03:14.39
It's amazing how
they were intertwined.
00:03:14.42\00:03:15.76
They were
influenced by the Holy Spirit
00:03:15.79\00:03:18.39
and by hearing
information that was happening.
00:03:18.43\00:03:21.60
Right.
00:03:21.63\00:03:22.96
And I remember
00:03:23.00\00:03:24.33
when Hus so
aggravated the authorities,
00:03:24.37\00:03:26.94
that they
brought him up on charges
00:03:26.97\00:03:28.37
and then burnt him.
00:03:28.40\00:03:30.04
At that point
they were so aggravated
00:03:30.07\00:03:31.71
that the connection to Wycliffe,
00:03:31.74\00:03:33.71
that's when they went
and dug up Wycliffe's bones,
00:03:33.74\00:03:35.91
burned them and
threw them in the river.
00:03:35.94\00:03:38.01
So the connection was
undoubted and very clear.
00:03:38.05\00:03:41.18
And something I
discovered recently,
00:03:41.22\00:03:43.32
you probably remember
too from your studies,
00:03:43.35\00:03:45.49
they were the Hussite wars
00:03:45.52\00:03:46.86
that followed
Jan Hus's martyrdom.
00:03:46.89\00:03:50.09
So it was not a singular,
just a church related thing.
00:03:50.13\00:03:53.33
The whole European
Society was in furor over this,
00:03:53.36\00:03:58.53
the issue of the
Bible and the church,
00:03:58.57\00:04:00.37
and political control and so on.
00:04:00.40\00:04:02.64
So it was a little more
than Martin Luther, wasn't it?
00:04:02.67\00:04:04.77
Tremendous,
tremendous involvement
00:04:04.81\00:04:06.98
because God chooses people
to project His word and truth
00:04:07.01\00:04:13.11
and that's why He can do
the same thing with us today.
00:04:13.15\00:04:15.85
Now, something that
you might have not noticed
00:04:15.88\00:04:18.85
and I only slowly
picked it up in the discussions
00:04:18.89\00:04:21.99
of a couple of years ago,
00:04:22.02\00:04:23.69
about the
Reformation prayer time.
00:04:23.73\00:04:25.86
I heard many of
these think tanks and,
00:04:25.89\00:04:28.26
and different groups
that met in Washington,
00:04:28.30\00:04:30.03
you know, there's a lot
of religiopolitical groups
00:04:30.07\00:04:33.37
that meet and discuss.
00:04:33.40\00:04:35.30
And a lot of them said
something that bothered me,
00:04:35.34\00:04:37.77
they said, we're now in
the third wave of thinking
00:04:37.81\00:04:40.24
about the Reformation.
00:04:40.28\00:04:42.21
I think you and
I are first wavers.
00:04:42.24\00:04:44.01
What's the first
battle we see the Reformation?
00:04:44.05\00:04:46.35
Well, that,
00:04:46.38\00:04:48.02
actually the
reformation should never end.
00:04:48.05\00:04:50.75
Right. That the Reformation...
00:04:50.79\00:04:52.12
'Cause that's the wave
00:04:52.15\00:04:53.49
that it's to peak
at the second coming.
00:04:53.52\00:04:55.42
The Reformation
is a continual effort
00:04:55.46\00:04:58.76
to bring to the forefront,
00:04:58.79\00:05:00.90
the precious
righteousness of Christ,
00:05:00.93\00:05:04.53
and the explanation
of the plan of salvation
00:05:04.57\00:05:08.27
and God's wishes for each of us
00:05:08.30\00:05:11.37
to be part of this
proclamation found in His Word.
00:05:11.41\00:05:14.51
I mean, that's the
reason for the Word of God.
00:05:14.54\00:05:16.64
So yes, we're just part of
this Reformation that began
00:05:16.68\00:05:21.18
and should never end
until the second coming.
00:05:21.22\00:05:23.39
So it was a
rediscovery of the Word of God
00:05:23.42\00:05:25.65
and removing the church
or the Christian experience
00:05:25.69\00:05:29.19
from all the impediments
of paganism, of legalism,
00:05:29.22\00:05:33.09
of political,
00:05:33.13\00:05:36.36
you know, having your
cake and eating it too,
00:05:36.40\00:05:37.73
like really, in some ways,
00:05:37.77\00:05:39.10
the Roman Catholic
Church still as a state,
00:05:39.13\00:05:41.07
Vatican state, and as a church,
00:05:41.10\00:05:43.34
the Catholic Church,
sort of plays between the two,
00:05:43.37\00:05:46.24
and that was the downfall
of Christianity in those days.
00:05:46.27\00:05:49.18
So that's the first way
that you and I agree with it.
00:05:49.21\00:05:51.71
And there's
still a powerful role
00:05:51.75\00:05:53.08
in that church.
00:05:53.11\00:05:54.45
We're part of
it. We're part of it.
00:05:54.48\00:05:55.82
Absolutely, the Adventist Church
00:05:55.85\00:05:57.19
as I grew up in it,
00:05:57.22\00:05:58.55
you and I are both
children of the church.
00:05:58.59\00:06:00.36
We've always told
ourselves that we're continuing
00:06:00.39\00:06:03.86
this emphasis from the
days of the Reformation,
00:06:03.89\00:06:06.26
of course, harking back
to primitive Christianity,
00:06:06.29\00:06:09.13
and then God's
dealings in the Old Testament.
00:06:09.16\00:06:11.90
But the second
wave of the Reformation,
00:06:11.93\00:06:14.67
I'd heard about
it for many years,
00:06:14.70\00:06:16.71
it's the sort of the
higher critical view,
00:06:16.74\00:06:18.67
the Reformation was
less a religious awakening
00:06:18.71\00:06:22.71
than an application
of the enlightenment
00:06:22.74\00:06:25.05
to religious thinking.
00:06:25.08\00:06:26.88
So it's sort of a
secularist, self determination
00:06:26.92\00:06:30.09
that took on a religious goal.
00:06:30.12\00:06:31.75
And there's a small
element of truth in that.
00:06:31.79\00:06:34.16
But I'd rather even put
it the other way around,
00:06:34.19\00:06:36.89
that the enlightenment
or the second enlightenment
00:06:36.93\00:06:39.43
took off because
there was a change
00:06:39.46\00:06:41.46
in religious viewpoints.
00:06:41.50\00:06:42.83
I think it freed
people from mental change.
00:06:42.86\00:06:45.07
But what's troubling
to me is the third wave
00:06:45.10\00:06:48.04
that I've heard it in
four or five instances
00:06:48.07\00:06:51.44
at the Jesuit
discussion in Fordham.
00:06:51.47\00:06:55.31
I've heard it in two or
three think tanks downtown.
00:06:55.34\00:06:57.31
And they say the
third way of thinking about
00:06:57.35\00:07:00.35
what the Reformation was,
00:07:00.38\00:07:01.72
it was the Roman
Catholic Medieval Church,
00:07:01.75\00:07:04.95
reforming itself.
00:07:04.99\00:07:08.69
Now, goodness knows,
00:07:08.72\00:07:10.09
we want any
church to reform itself,
00:07:10.13\00:07:12.16
get back to basics.
00:07:12.19\00:07:13.96
And you and I have
lived through a period
00:07:14.00\00:07:16.56
where the Roman Catholic Church,
00:07:16.60\00:07:18.10
I think has made great
strides, it can't change itself.
00:07:18.13\00:07:21.87
But, you know,
there's a refreshing
00:07:21.90\00:07:24.77
with individual Catholics,
they read the Bible now
00:07:24.81\00:07:26.81
where they were not encouraged
to so much in previous eras.
00:07:26.84\00:07:30.18
But to me that just
flies in the face of history.
00:07:30.21\00:07:33.28
And that's why I
started that discussion
00:07:33.31\00:07:36.02
with Wycliffe and Hus and,
00:07:36.05\00:07:39.22
you know, you can
get on to John Knox,
00:07:39.25\00:07:41.16
that firebrand in Scotland
00:07:41.19\00:07:42.92
that started the
Church of Scotland,
00:07:42.96\00:07:46.56
Presbyterian Church.
00:07:46.59\00:07:48.33
There's no way
you can link those
00:07:48.36\00:07:50.50
to anything like orthodox
00:07:50.53\00:07:53.84
medieval Roman Catholicism.
00:07:53.87\00:07:56.30
They were free
thinkers, they were harking back
00:07:56.34\00:07:58.87
to the basics of Bible truth.
00:07:58.91\00:08:00.44
Yeah, they came back
to Bible truth, exactly.
00:08:00.48\00:08:02.84
And that's what Reformation
always has to come back to,
00:08:02.88\00:08:06.85
to return us to the
simple, beautiful truths
00:08:06.88\00:08:11.79
that are found
in the Word of God,
00:08:11.82\00:08:13.72
and empowered by the Holy Spirit
00:08:13.76\00:08:16.19
in our understanding
of what those truths are.
00:08:16.22\00:08:18.53
And I know you have
a clear understanding
00:08:18.56\00:08:22.10
of the dangers
of sort of divorcing
00:08:22.13\00:08:25.93
a Christian
experience for the Word of God
00:08:25.97\00:08:27.70
and just sort of free
floating on nice feelings
00:08:27.74\00:08:30.24
and even waiting for
a divine illumination
00:08:30.27\00:08:32.97
separate from
looking for God's lead.
00:08:33.01\00:08:34.64
Existentialism
00:08:34.68\00:08:36.01
and just a feel
good kind of religion
00:08:36.04\00:08:38.78
is not based on the
reading of the Word,
00:08:38.81\00:08:42.28
that doesn't mean
you're not going to feel
00:08:42.32\00:08:44.25
empowered and happy.
00:08:44.29\00:08:46.45
But it means you
really are understanding
00:08:46.49\00:08:49.02
the content of what
God is saying to you.
00:08:49.06\00:08:52.69
And then you're using
that in sharing it with others.
00:08:52.73\00:08:55.80
Absolutely.
00:08:55.83\00:08:57.17
In other words that
it has to be the path
00:08:57.20\00:09:00.07
of the Bible
truth and along the way,
00:09:00.10\00:09:02.50
you know, there's gonna
be some great illumination
00:09:02.54\00:09:05.14
and even ecstasy,
the medieval theologians
00:09:05.17\00:09:09.48
were great on religious ecstasy
00:09:09.51\00:09:11.28
that they had such an influence,
00:09:11.31\00:09:14.15
and I think people
have forgotten that now.
00:09:14.18\00:09:15.52
And even our Adventist Church
00:09:15.55\00:09:16.89
as I read the story
of Adventist pioneers
00:09:16.92\00:09:19.09
and even Ellen White,
00:09:19.12\00:09:21.39
we clearly believe
she was a visionary.
00:09:21.42\00:09:24.29
They were often extremely
ecstatic about their faith
00:09:24.33\00:09:26.93
but not divorced
from biblical absolutes.
00:09:26.96\00:09:30.27
Absolutely.
00:09:30.30\00:09:33.07
But, you know,
this does trouble me
00:09:33.10\00:09:35.37
and I can see the same
to have the Reformation
00:09:35.40\00:09:39.04
sort of pulled from its moorings
00:09:39.07\00:09:41.38
and reapplied for a modern world
00:09:41.41\00:09:42.81
that doesn't generally
at least not as much as
00:09:42.84\00:09:45.31
before know,
00:09:45.35\00:09:46.68
the theological
issues that were at play,
00:09:46.72\00:09:49.18
doesn't know the
Bible as well as it should
00:09:49.22\00:09:52.35
and that's sort of
an alluring concept.
00:09:52.39\00:09:55.09
You know, I'm okay,
you're okay, God loves us all.
00:09:55.12\00:09:58.69
The Reformation was
bringing the whole church
00:09:58.73\00:10:01.86
whether we're Calithumpians
as my father used to say
00:10:01.90\00:10:04.93
or Catholics, or
Adventists, or Mormons,
00:10:04.97\00:10:08.17
Masons, doesn't matter,
00:10:08.20\00:10:09.54
we're all looking
for that divine being.
00:10:09.57\00:10:12.11
I'm sure God
leads us individually.
00:10:12.14\00:10:13.84
But the Reformation tells me too
00:10:13.88\00:10:16.61
that the distinctions
mean something, right?
00:10:16.64\00:10:20.12
They do.
00:10:20.15\00:10:21.48
Well, I don't, can't really
think of one single reformer
00:10:21.52\00:10:24.15
that had everything right.
00:10:24.19\00:10:26.19
In their own way each
one sort of branched out
00:10:26.22\00:10:28.32
with a great illumination
to clarify the issue
00:10:28.36\00:10:32.16
and remove from the
darkness of the Middle Ages.
00:10:32.19\00:10:36.56
Again, back to Martin
Luther, he's a towering figure.
00:10:36.60\00:10:40.44
And, of course, the...
00:10:40.47\00:10:41.80
If you go reading with some
of the more recent material,
00:10:41.84\00:10:44.87
they make a lot of
his personal demons
00:10:44.91\00:10:48.34
for one of a better word
and his personality foibles
00:10:48.38\00:10:51.48
and his political missteps,
00:10:51.51\00:10:53.05
backing the
President's rebellion.
00:10:53.08\00:10:56.95
And even at the end of his life,
00:10:56.99\00:10:58.62
he went through a very
great period of depression,
00:10:58.65\00:11:01.06
and supposedly
almost thought that
00:11:01.09\00:11:03.76
it was all a waste of time.
00:11:03.79\00:11:05.36
But for you and me,
that can't mean that
00:11:05.39\00:11:08.26
what he did was
of no value, right?
00:11:08.30\00:11:10.77
No, absolutely not
and there's something
00:11:10.80\00:11:13.50
we have to
remember, we are human beings,
00:11:13.54\00:11:18.81
and we are
subject to the temptations
00:11:18.84\00:11:22.58
of the devil, of Satan.
00:11:22.61\00:11:24.98
And through God's
power, we can resist that
00:11:25.01\00:11:27.62
but people can
become discouraged,
00:11:27.65\00:11:29.95
people can become
disheartened by things.
00:11:29.98\00:11:33.36
It doesn't mean that God
has not worked through them.
00:11:33.39\00:11:36.22
It simply means we have to learn
00:11:36.26\00:11:38.43
in an even greater
way to lean on the Lord,
00:11:38.46\00:11:41.13
even in those very,
very difficult circumstances.
00:11:41.16\00:11:44.70
And probably Martin
Luther was just seeing
00:11:44.73\00:11:47.27
so many things
happening around him
00:11:47.30\00:11:49.67
and some of it was
not what he intended.
00:11:49.70\00:11:52.67
And it took on its
own life, so to speak.
00:11:52.71\00:11:55.74
So some of those things...
00:11:55.78\00:11:57.11
It's overwhelming
for him. Yeah, exactly.
00:11:57.15\00:11:58.48
As his life tells us,
00:11:58.51\00:11:59.85
he was pretty
much a peasant son,
00:11:59.88\00:12:02.48
I mean, he was
from very basic stock.
00:12:02.52\00:12:05.29
He was educated in Bible study,
00:12:05.32\00:12:07.56
but he wasn't
really an urbane city man.
00:12:07.59\00:12:10.66
So yes, I think
things ran away from him.
00:12:10.69\00:12:12.79
But I'm bringing
this for a reason.
00:12:12.83\00:12:14.16
I think it's dangerous
00:12:14.20\00:12:15.53
just to see the
Reformation as only Luther,
00:12:15.56\00:12:17.50
because he was
just one personality.
00:12:17.53\00:12:19.77
So many others
were involved in this
00:12:19.80\00:12:22.14
and everyone in their own
way was trying to come back
00:12:22.17\00:12:25.47
to pure biblical truth,
00:12:25.51\00:12:27.91
to what the
standard of God really was.
00:12:27.94\00:12:31.01
In fact, that's
what the three angels'
00:12:31.05\00:12:32.75
messages are all
about in Revelation 14,
00:12:32.78\00:12:35.68
turning people back to
the true worship of God,
00:12:35.72\00:12:38.99
and to focus
upon the righteousness
00:12:39.02\00:12:41.86
of Jesus Christ,
00:12:41.89\00:12:43.22
not our own efforts to
try and earn salvation.
00:12:43.26\00:12:47.40
But to find in that precious
passage in Revelation 14:6-12,
00:12:47.43\00:12:53.94
those three angels'
messages, a reinforced...
00:12:53.97\00:12:55.90
We'll talk about that later.
00:12:55.94\00:12:57.34
A reinforced emphasis
00:12:57.37\00:13:01.38
on God's Word on who God is,
00:13:01.41\00:13:05.08
and how we are
totally dependent upon Him
00:13:05.11\00:13:07.98
for our very life
and for salvation.
00:13:08.02\00:13:10.09
Yeah.
00:13:10.12\00:13:11.82
We're going to take a break now,
00:13:11.85\00:13:13.62
and I'll pick up
after the break...
00:13:13.66\00:13:15.02
Good.
00:13:15.06\00:13:16.39
With another
aspect of the Reformation.
00:13:16.42\00:13:18.86
Stay with us.
00:13:18.89\00:13:20.23