Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI190438B
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00:03 Welcome back to Liberty Insider.
00:06 In the break, we were thinking a little more about the topic 00:10 and let's move on. 00:11 Okay. 00:13 But to repeat though, 00:14 there are significant developments 00:18 in the relationship between the United States and Israel, 00:21 loaded with prophetic and religious implications. 00:25 And when we talk about religious freedom, 00:27 I think you and I can agree that there is a lot at stake 00:32 and these recognitions of land taken 00:34 and have a city occupied 00:36 could actually stir up sentiment on a religious level, 00:40 particularly against some Christians there, 00:44 an antipathy between Jews and Muslims. 00:46 And it's... 00:48 I think you made the comment that, you know, 00:49 a lot of people are easily disturbed here. 00:51 Yes, that's right. 00:52 And we don't want to do that. 00:54 We want continued freedom for all people, 00:55 to worship and to live in freedom 00:58 without fear of their lives 01:00 because of religious or political realities, right? 01:04 Right. 01:05 But you know, look at the world at large. 01:07 How would you characterize our present world situation 01:11 on religious liberty? 01:12 And before you answer, I'll just throw in something 01:15 that's so passe now, it's scary. 01:17 Remember, George Bush Senior said, 01:18 "Democracies breaking out all over?" 01:20 Remember that? Yes. 01:23 That's sort of a Fukuyama moment. 01:26 You know, what I'm talking about, 01:28 Francis Fukuyama said, 01:29 "We'd reached the end of history, 01:30 all the developments impeded." 01:32 Oh, right. 01:33 Well, yeah, I... 01:35 It's disturbing because this isn't relevant directly 01:39 to religious liberty. 01:40 But, certainly, the rise of authoritarianism 01:43 across the world, even in traditionally, 01:47 democratic societies in Europe and other places 01:50 is very disturbing. 01:53 And you know, Brazil, the dictator who's arisen, 01:58 a Christian dictator, who's arisen. 02:01 It's very disturbing that religion and religion 02:07 may or may not be a part of it, but often it is. 02:09 It nearly always is, yeah, the subtext, 02:12 if not the main issue. 02:14 So there is, there's this right-wing nationalism, 02:18 that is, that has really swept across the world. 02:23 And it's... 02:24 And it does have religious liberty implications, 02:27 particularly as it relates to Muslim immigrants, 02:30 which seemed to be the hotspot for a lot of cultures 02:33 at this point, especially in Europe. 02:36 Because there are many Muslim refugees 02:39 because of the... 02:40 What's going on in the Middle East. 02:42 So... 02:43 You know, they happen to be Muslim. 02:45 That can't change that reality. 02:47 But you know, as I've studied history, 02:49 it strikes me that, 02:51 you know, these wars, and battles, and invasions, 02:53 that's the tawdry tale of history. 02:56 But the most consequential things 03:00 that really changed the world are people movements. 03:05 Immigrations or refugee floods, 03:09 when they changed the demographic balance. 03:11 And I think that's what we're seeing. 03:12 I remember reading, many years ago, 03:15 a novel that was sort of a science fiction novel, 03:19 where the Western world was fading 03:22 from its previous imperial glories 03:25 or colonial glories. 03:27 They were in great trouble. 03:29 And their old holdings, 03:31 in their old holdings out and around, 03:33 the people were getting in boats 03:35 and en masse, just coming. 03:38 Not with an army, but people invading and flooding them 03:42 demographically. 03:43 That's what we're living through. 03:45 Whoever wrote that was very prescient. 03:47 I remember reading the review on it too, 03:49 and suggesting that maybe such a thing 03:51 would happen in the future, but it was purely theoretical. 03:54 This was, at a guess, I'd say, easily 30, 30 some years ago, 03:58 at least. 04:00 But that's what we're seeing. 04:02 And it is a threat. 04:03 Well, not a threat, maybe that's the wrong word. 04:05 It's a challenge. 04:07 Well, I think... A daunting challenge. 04:09 The government, particularly the US government 04:12 has destabilized the Middle East 04:14 in such a way that it's... 04:18 I think that's responsible for a lot of the things 04:22 that have forced the refugees to leave their homelands. 04:28 So that's something that is a disturbing development 04:32 that, it's essentially created this problem. 04:39 But many years ago, in the weeks after 9/11, 04:42 I was on a plane. 04:46 Won't say the whole story, 04:47 but I believe we had an attempted 04:51 event on the plane. 04:53 And the guy sitting next to me was a Pakistani Muslim 04:59 who'd most recently been in Afghanistan, radical guy. 05:03 And as part of the way to defuse him, 05:08 I started talking history to him. 05:10 And I said, "Why are you bothering America?" 05:14 Because I said to him, I said, "You trouble America, 05:16 there'll be a world war on this." 05:18 He says, "Fine, we want world war." 05:19 And I said, "Why are you bothering America?" 05:22 I said, "England's done far more to thwart 05:24 the Arab nationalist cause than America." 05:27 He says, "We don't care about England, 05:28 England's finished. 05:30 We want America." 05:31 And I'm telling that as a way to bring out. 05:33 From a matter of history, yes, 05:35 the US has mishandled it pretty bad. 05:37 But in my view, 05:38 it's the English imperial adventures 05:40 there that laid the groundwork. 05:43 Everything from the Sykes-Picot Agreement, 05:46 where they divvied up the Middle East, 05:48 not with any logic. 05:49 Well, their own logic, not with any consideration, 05:52 but to weaken people groups, the Kurds and so on, 05:55 and to balkanize the situation, 05:57 so it could be more easily governed by England and France. 06:00 I remember barely, but I read about it, 06:03 the Suez Canal crisis 06:06 where England tried to take it back. 06:09 And it was America that stopped England. 06:11 So America has not been the fall guy on all of it. 06:15 But we've inherited what England was once up to. 06:20 And I think America's sins have been twofold. 06:23 One, ignorance, good intentions, 06:26 a better way to put it, good intentions, 06:27 but not understanding there. 06:29 And the other, an inordinate interest in the oil. 06:33 Well, that's the big one. 06:34 Right. 06:37 And the oil, well, 06:38 it has come and it will go one day, 06:40 but people remain. 06:42 And, you know, I think we could hope that the West and the US, 06:46 in particular, 06:47 takes more steps to solidify that area. 06:51 But meanwhile, religious turmoil 06:53 is just bubbling and boiling all over that area. 06:58 It's interesting to live 07:00 through it and to see it, isn't it? 07:01 Yes. 07:02 Yes, it's. 07:04 And so, as I said before, it's the final expulsion 07:06 in some ways of Christians from that area, 07:09 the West seems powerless to help with. 07:11 One of the most damning statistics is in Iraq, 07:16 reasons that made sense 07:18 to the US authorities at the time. 07:21 You and I can't double guess it, 07:22 we can have opinions on it, but they did it. 07:26 But unfortunately, they invaded a country with the desperate, 07:29 yes, but he was for many complicated reasons 07:33 protecting a Christian population 07:35 in Iraq. 07:36 It's hard to get a handle on him 07:38 and I've said for years, a million Christians. 07:40 But I read on an Iraqi site, recently, 07:43 there were million and a half Christians, 07:45 but certainly a sizable number of Christians 07:48 who were protected equally 07:50 under the law with Muslims and all other religions. 07:55 After we invaded and sort of broke the truce, 07:58 both Islamic factions turned on the Christians 08:02 for religious and for political reasons, 08:04 seeing them as sort of the fifth column 08:07 for the foreigners. 08:10 And then when ISIS erupted in a dysfunctional Iraq, 08:15 ISIS turned on the Christians. 08:17 And in Mosul, 08:19 they gave them the choice after a 24 hour iffy period, 08:23 where they at first were just required 08:24 to pay the dhimmi or religious tax. 08:26 They said, "They had to convert or die." 08:29 And I remember in Time and Newsweek, 08:32 pictures of Christians on crosses. 08:35 They were crucified and beheaded. 08:37 How many, we'll never know, 08:39 but likely a very high percentage 08:41 because Mosul's the second largest city in Iraq, 08:43 and it was quickly captured with whatever 08:45 Christians were there. 08:47 So, you know, we need to spare a thought for this, 08:50 the plight of, in this case, Christians, 08:51 but of any persecuted minority. 08:54 There's Yazidis, and even the Kurds now, 08:57 who once persecuted the Armenians. 08:59 They've been persecuted by Turkey, 09:02 and Syria, and Iraq. 09:07 It's just a mixed bag of religious hatreds 09:10 and ethnic rivalries. 09:11 There's no question, 09:13 that as we look at the whole world, 09:15 there's this religious conflict, 09:16 and in particular, in the Middle East, 09:18 it's still bubbling and boiling, 09:20 very much a prophetic fulfillment 09:22 of what we expect the instability 09:24 and especially God's people being persecuted. 09:27 But, you know, as we move forward, 09:29 how do you think we should look at the situation? 09:31 Do you think there's a salutary lesson 09:33 for people of faith and Christians in particular? 09:36 Yes, absolutely. 09:39 It's important to respect all faiths, and to, 09:44 and also to avoid 09:46 the conflation of religion and politics, 09:49 because that is what has led to many of these problems. 09:54 If we avoid, if we think of religion 09:57 as a separate entity from the government, 10:01 our country 10:03 and other democracies have shown 10:05 that that is the most, the best way to avoid 10:08 these kinds of religious conflicts. 10:12 There was the old saying that the Jews in times of need, 10:16 especially when they were in exile, they would say, 10:19 "Next year in Jerusalem." 10:22 As the Seventh-day Adventist Christian, 10:24 I like that sentiment, 10:26 but picking up from the Book of Revelation, 10:28 where it speaks of the New Jerusalem 10:31 come down from heaven. 10:33 I like to think, "Next year, just over the horizon, 10:37 the New Jerusalem." 10:39 There's no getting around that many Christians 10:41 feel deeply attracted to Israel, 10:45 and to the scenes of so much of what happened 10:49 in the New Testament and the Old Testament, 10:52 that it's easy to get swept up in what they call 10:55 Jerusalem Fever. 10:58 But as our discussion brought out, 10:59 it's necessary to keep some perspective on this. 11:03 The modern state of Israel 11:04 begun as a socialist experiment. 11:07 And indeed the people that have come back there 11:10 as needy as they were in the day of Jesus' time 11:12 when He said that He come to find the lost sheep 11:15 of Israel. 11:16 That is not the answer to the present problem. 11:19 As always, it was finding Christ, 11:22 as always, 11:23 the Jerusalem is where God dwells 11:26 with His people. 11:28 And that time is surely just around the corner, 11:31 as current events clearly demonstrate. 11:35 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2019-06-14