Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI190437B
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00:04 Welcome back to Liberty Insider.
00:06 Before the break, 00:08 we were heavy into freedom of speech, 00:11 right? 00:15 Is freedom of speech the real freedom 00:19 that defines western democracy 00:21 versus some other country? 00:23 I'm asking that, believing 00:24 that's almost answers itself, isn't it? 00:26 Doesn't it? Well, it's hard to say. 00:29 I mean, 00:31 I think all the freedoms are intertwined. 00:34 So how do you separate them? 00:36 I would say, freedom of religion is very central, 00:42 because that involves freedom of speech, 00:44 freedom of assembly. 00:47 But all of them are so intertwined, 00:49 it's hard to believe. 00:50 Well, that's true. 00:51 We had a speaker once for our Annual Liberty Dinner, 00:55 and the speaker made the comment 00:57 that the religious freedom is over the litmus test 00:59 for all freedoms. 01:02 But freedom of speech, put into action, 01:05 automatically allows religion full expression, 01:09 it automatically allows political activity. 01:13 I mean, it really clears the way 01:15 for almost everything, doesn't it? 01:17 Well, there is more involved in religion. 01:20 There's practice which doesn't necessarily involve speech. 01:24 You know, speech is kind of a limited... 01:27 It involves some contact 01:29 but it doesn't involve all contact. 01:31 Yeah. 01:32 I was thinking of speech as public expression. 01:35 So yeah, I guess you could have silent practice. 01:38 But it's always struck me 01:41 that most countries in the world, 01:44 communism, 01:45 and then late Soviet Union is the prime example, 01:49 did have a guarantee of freedom of religion. 01:52 Yes. 01:54 But they didn't really have 01:56 the full guarantee of freedom of speech, 01:57 so it became a hypothetical... 02:00 Just look good, they didn't really allow it, 02:03 where if they'd had freedom of speech, 02:04 it would go to the practical level. 02:08 But I've noticed that. 02:09 In fact, I'll tell a story that I've told before 02:11 because it really impressed me at the time. 02:15 I heard an interview on BBC Radio 02:18 with the foreign minister from the Maldives, 02:22 just a little cluster of islands 02:24 in the middle of the Indian Ocean, 02:28 nice tropical environment, 02:29 only few hundred thousand citizens, 02:31 all Muslim. 02:33 And the BBC interviewer asked him what it was like. 02:37 And "Oh, wonderful, free country. 02:39 We have freedom of this, freedom of that, 02:42 no social problems." 02:44 And he asked him, 02:45 he says, "Do you have freedom of religion?" 02:47 "Oh, absolutely, full freedom of religion." 02:50 And he said, "Well, I'm a Christian. 02:52 You know, if I came there, 02:54 would I be allowed to practice my faith?" 02:57 And the guy instantly became offended and he says, 03:00 "Absolutely not." 03:02 He says, "We might as well invite Al-Qaeda 03:04 into our country." 03:08 So in another words, this is poison. 03:10 You can't spread what you've got here. 03:13 So, you know, 03:14 I think freedom of speech, you're right. 03:16 They are all intertwined, but something to pick up. 03:20 You know, it's a wonderful freedom that 03:22 certainly gives a dynamic expression, 03:26 it has to, speech to religion 03:28 wherever it's really honored. 03:31 You know, Martin Luther, 03:35 I mean, he nailed things supposedly to the door. 03:39 The historians are liking to say, 03:40 "No, he didn't really nailed it." 03:42 But it's certain that he stood up, 03:43 and held forth, and railed against the pope, 03:46 and set some quite seditious things 03:51 for the time. 03:55 They couldn't stop him. 03:56 And, of course, as a result, 03:57 the whole world was changed or at least the European world. 04:04 So can you think of any other examples, 04:07 present-day examples, 04:08 both in the negative and the positive 04:10 where freedom of speech is vital, 04:13 and might be threatened, or might be challenged? 04:15 Well, interestingly enough, 04:17 we were just talking about a case 04:19 that was recently decided in which Justice Thomas 04:25 basically was trying to overturn. 04:29 He wasn't fortunately in the majority, 04:31 but his opinion, 04:33 he said he would overturn the standard for defamation 04:38 for public figures. 04:40 And that is very disturbing 04:43 because that standard was set in Civil Rights Movement, 04:49 and they had the government leaders, 04:54 I believe it was in Alabama, had sued 04:57 the New York Times because of their... 05:01 they're reporting on what is going on 05:03 in the Civil Rights Movement. 05:04 And they had a won a very large judgment 05:07 which basically shutdown all the reporting on that issue 05:11 for years 05:12 until the Sullivan case was decided, 05:15 and the Sullivan case stood for the proposition 05:19 that you have to have actual malice. 05:24 The person suing you has to show 05:28 that you intended to publish false statements. 05:33 And that gave a lot of protection to people, 05:37 to journalists writing about these issues. 05:40 And Thomas wants to lower that 05:42 so that a public figure can 05:46 successfully sue a journalist 05:49 for making statements against them, 05:50 and that's very disturbing. 05:52 So he sort of playing tag with the President's view 05:55 that the media are playing with fake news. 06:01 When Trump is trying to find a way 06:03 to sue Saturday Night Live 06:05 and calling everything fake news, 06:09 that's a very, very disturbing opinion. 06:12 I mean, there is fake news floating around, 06:14 there's no question about it. 06:15 Misinformation is another word, 06:18 but to plant the idea in the general populist 06:21 that the vast majority of information floating around, 06:25 particularly information counted to what, 06:28 say, a president or a public official 06:31 might say that by definition, it's fake news, 06:33 it's really to confuse people's powers of perception, 06:37 it seems to me. 06:38 Well, there's plenty of fake news going around 06:40 and most of it is favorable to Trump, so... 06:43 Well, be careful. 06:45 You know, 06:48 we're commenting on this, we're not necessarily for 06:50 or against any government leader, 06:51 but we have to critique any country, 06:55 any administration, 06:57 any particular leader 06:59 that speaks against basic freedoms 07:01 and restricts religious liberty. 07:05 You know, I do think the United States 07:08 has been a continuing bulwark of western liberal values. 07:14 And as you would argue and had in another program, 07:18 the Constitution has given a bedrock 07:21 point from that. 07:22 But things are changing. 07:25 And I think we have to speak out, 07:28 we have to raise an alarm. 07:29 Use free speech. 07:31 I mean, it's really the only weapon 07:32 to argue against losing that weapon. 07:34 That's the great irony. Right. 07:37 Well, I guess this is the pen, but to me, 07:39 that's communication is still... 07:41 Well, speech includes written speech. 07:43 Yes, has to, yeah. 07:44 Pen is mightier than the sword, they say. 07:46 Right. 07:47 They say as they stab someone with the... 07:51 I think, I go back further than most people, 07:55 because when I was in public school in Australia, 07:57 we used to have our own little inkwell on our desk, 08:00 but the nib that they dipped in that thing, 08:03 and they were pretty sharp, I'll tell you. 08:06 But now, 08:08 words spoken or written are powerful. 08:11 And clearly, 08:14 it was written in spoken language 08:16 that was the genesis to the whole American Revolution. 08:18 Right. 08:20 Thomas Paine and whole bunch of other writers 08:23 at the time informed and changed public opinion. 08:27 They didn't have radio, 08:28 they didn't have the ability to speak instantly 08:31 like through the internet that we now have. 08:34 But I think that explains why stuff 08:36 so I fast forward now. 08:38 The communication is there, but it's being questioned, 08:41 and people are not real sure. 08:43 As the Bible says, 08:45 "Every wind of doctrine flowing." 08:46 Right? Right. 08:48 And there is a lot of... 08:50 Anyone can put up a website and say whatever they want. 08:53 So there's a lot less restriction 08:55 and there's a lot less controls 08:57 on what is published 09:00 and whether the credibility of it. 09:05 So that's a problem in this current environment 09:09 where it's hard to know what's true 09:11 because there's so much information coming out. 09:14 And anybody can just put up whatever they want, 09:17 and how do you know whether it's true or not? 09:19 So how do we know if this is the takeaway, 09:23 with free speech, 09:24 a necessary part of our freedoms? 09:27 But you and I, and our viewers, 09:29 how can we be part of a successful dynamic 09:32 of testing what we hear, 09:36 and of being a part of a process 09:38 of disseminating accurate information? 09:40 Is there a principal? 09:42 Well, I think it's important 09:44 that people be intelligent readers 09:46 and read carefully, 09:50 use several different sources, 09:52 use credible sources that you know 09:54 have built-in credibility, 09:57 and that have a history of credibility. 10:00 It's very important to check anything that you read 10:03 against something else, 10:06 not just to believe everything you read. 10:10 It's important to be a critical thinker and say, 10:13 "Does this make sense? 10:14 Does it fit with other things that I know?" 10:17 And educated populous 10:19 is the greatest guard for liberty. 10:24 As a child, my father 10:27 took me several times in Sydney, Australia, 10:29 where we lived to Hyde Park, 10:32 whereas the Hyde Park in England, in London, 10:36 anybody could get the soap box, 10:38 and stand up, and hold forth on any topic 10:41 as seditious as that might be, 10:42 as offensive as it might be, they had the right. 10:45 I think the western freedom that we've experienced, 10:51 most of us in the west, 10:52 is wonderful, the freedom to speak your mind, 10:55 not always that way. 10:58 I've been affected deeply 11:00 since travelling to Cambodia and seeing there, 11:03 and the Killing Fields, 11:05 a memorial to people imprisoned 11:07 for nothing more than just knowing something, 11:09 having glasses, having education, 11:11 hearing about a young woman 11:13 executed for silently or mostly notably, 11:17 singing to herself in the middle of the night 11:19 next to other prisoners, 11:20 a pop song from Happier Days, 11:23 for that she was executed. 11:25 As Christians, as people of faith, 11:28 as people of any faith, 11:29 we have to take it as an obligation. 11:31 As the Bible says to sing songs in the night, 11:34 no matter how desperate the situation, 11:37 we need to sing of our Creator, 11:39 we need to proclaim in words 11:41 that cannot be chained or restricted, 11:44 our faith in God, and our hope for the future, 11:46 and our certainty 11:48 that there will be a day of redemption. 11:52 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2019-05-16