Welcome back to Liberty Insider.
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Before the break,
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we were heavy
into freedom of speech,
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right?
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Is freedom of
speech the real freedom
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that defines western democracy
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versus some other country?
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I'm asking that, believing
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that's almost
answers itself, isn't it?
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Doesn't it?
Well, it's hard to say.
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I mean,
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I think all the
freedoms are intertwined.
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So how do you separate them?
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I would say, freedom of
religion is very central,
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because that
involves freedom of speech,
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freedom of assembly.
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But all of them
are so intertwined,
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it's hard to believe.
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Well, that's true.
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We had a speaker once for
our Annual Liberty Dinner,
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and the speaker made the comment
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that the religious
freedom is over the litmus test
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for all freedoms.
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But freedom of
speech, put into action,
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automatically allows
religion full expression,
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it automatically
allows political activity.
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I mean, it really clears the way
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for almost
everything, doesn't it?
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Well, there is more
involved in religion.
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There's practice which doesn't
necessarily involve speech.
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You know, speech is
kind of a limited...
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It involves some contact
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but it doesn't
involve all contact.
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Yeah.
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I was thinking of
speech as public expression.
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So yeah, I guess you
could have silent practice.
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But it's always struck me
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that most
countries in the world,
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communism,
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and then late Soviet
Union is the prime example,
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did have a guarantee
of freedom of religion.
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Yes.
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But they didn't really have
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the full guarantee
of freedom of speech,
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so it became a hypothetical...
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Just look good, they
didn't really allow it,
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where if they'd
had freedom of speech,
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it would go to
the practical level.
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But I've noticed that.
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In fact, I'll tell a
story that I've told before
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because it really
impressed me at the time.
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I heard an
interview on BBC Radio
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with the foreign
minister from the Maldives,
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just a little cluster of islands
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in the middle of
the Indian Ocean,
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nice tropical environment,
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only few hundred
thousand citizens,
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all Muslim.
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And the BBC interviewer
asked him what it was like.
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And "Oh,
wonderful, free country.
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We have freedom of
this, freedom of that,
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no social problems."
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And he asked him,
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he says, "Do you
have freedom of religion?"
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"Oh, absolutely,
full freedom of religion."
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And he said,
"Well, I'm a Christian.
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You know, if I came there,
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would I be allowed
to practice my faith?"
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And the guy instantly
became offended and he says,
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"Absolutely not."
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He says, "We might
as well invite Al-Qaeda
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into our country."
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So in another
words, this is poison.
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You can't spread
what you've got here.
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So, you know,
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I think freedom of
speech, you're right.
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They are all intertwined,
but something to pick up.
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You know, it's a
wonderful freedom that
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certainly gives a
dynamic expression,
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it has to, speech to religion
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wherever it's really honored.
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You know, Martin Luther,
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I mean, he nailed
things supposedly to the door.
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The historians
are liking to say,
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"No, he didn't
really nailed it."
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But it's certain
that he stood up,
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and held forth, and
railed against the pope,
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and set some
quite seditious things
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for the time.
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They couldn't stop him.
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And, of course, as a result,
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the whole world was changed
or at least the European world.
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So can you think
of any other examples,
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present-day examples,
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both in the
negative and the positive
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where freedom
of speech is vital,
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and might be threatened,
or might be challenged?
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Well, interestingly enough,
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we were just
talking about a case
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that was recently
decided in which Justice Thomas
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basically was
trying to overturn.
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He wasn't
fortunately in the majority,
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but his opinion,
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he said he would overturn
the standard for defamation
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for public figures.
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And that is very disturbing
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because that standard was
set in Civil Rights Movement,
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and they had the
government leaders,
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I believe it was
in Alabama, had sued
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the New York Times
because of their...
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they're reporting
on what is going on
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in the Civil Rights Movement.
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And they had a won
a very large judgment
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which basically shutdown
all the reporting on that issue
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for years
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until the
Sullivan case was decided,
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and the Sullivan case
stood for the proposition
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that you have to
have actual malice.
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The person suing you has to show
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that you intended to
publish false statements.
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And that gave a lot
of protection to people,
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to journalists
writing about these issues.
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And Thomas wants to lower that
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so that a public figure can
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successfully sue a journalist
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for making
statements against them,
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and that's very disturbing.
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So he sort of playing
tag with the President's view
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that the media are
playing with fake news.
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When Trump is
trying to find a way
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to sue Saturday Night Live
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and calling
everything fake news,
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that's a very,
very disturbing opinion.
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I mean, there is
fake news floating around,
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there's no question about it.
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Misinformation is another word,
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but to plant the idea
in the general populist
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that the vast majority of
information floating around,
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particularly
information counted to what,
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say, a president
or a public official
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might say that by
definition, it's fake news,
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it's really to confuse
people's powers of perception,
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it seems to me.
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Well, there's plenty
of fake news going around
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and most of it is
favorable to Trump, so...
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Well, be careful.
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You know,
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we're commenting on
this, we're not necessarily for
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or against any
government leader,
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but we have to
critique any country,
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any administration,
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any particular leader
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that speaks
against basic freedoms
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and restricts religious liberty.
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You know, I do
think the United States
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has been a continuing bulwark
of western liberal values.
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And as you would argue
and had in another program,
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the Constitution
has given a bedrock
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point from that.
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But things are changing.
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And I think we
have to speak out,
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we have to raise an alarm.
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Use free speech.
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I mean, it's
really the only weapon
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to argue against
losing that weapon.
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That's the great irony. Right.
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Well, I guess this
is the pen, but to me,
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that's communication is still...
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Well, speech
includes written speech.
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Yes, has to, yeah.
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Pen is mightier
than the sword, they say.
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Right.
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They say as they
stab someone with the...
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I think, I go back
further than most people,
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because when I was in
public school in Australia,
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we used to have our own
little inkwell on our desk,
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but the nib that
they dipped in that thing,
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and they were pretty
sharp, I'll tell you.
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But now,
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words spoken or
written are powerful.
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And clearly,
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it was written
in spoken language
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that was the genesis to
the whole American Revolution.
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Right.
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Thomas Paine and
whole bunch of other writers
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at the time informed
and changed public opinion.
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They didn't have radio,
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they didn't have the
ability to speak instantly
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like through the
internet that we now have.
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But I think that
explains why stuff
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so I fast forward now.
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The communication is there,
but it's being questioned,
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and people are not real sure.
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As the Bible says,
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"Every wind of
doctrine flowing."
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Right? Right.
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And there is a lot of...
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Anyone can put up a website
and say whatever they want.
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So there's a
lot less restriction
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and there's a lot less controls
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on what is published
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and whether the
credibility of it.
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So that's a problem in
this current environment
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where it's hard
to know what's true
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because there's so
much information coming out.
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And anybody can just
put up whatever they want,
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and how do you know
whether it's true or not?
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So how do we know if
this is the takeaway,
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with free speech,
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a necessary
part of our freedoms?
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But you and I, and our viewers,
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how can we be part
of a successful dynamic
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of testing what we hear,
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and of being a part of a process
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of disseminating
accurate information?
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Is there a principal?
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Well, I think it's important
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that people be
intelligent readers
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and read carefully,
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use several different sources,
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use credible
sources that you know
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have built-in credibility,
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and that have a
history of credibility.
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It's very important to
check anything that you read
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against something else,
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not just to believe
everything you read.
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It's important to be a
critical thinker and say,
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"Does this make sense?
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Does it fit with
other things that I know?"
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And educated populous
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is the greatest
guard for liberty.
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As a child, my father
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took me several
times in Sydney, Australia,
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where we lived to Hyde Park,
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whereas the Hyde Park
in England, in London,
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anybody could get the soap box,
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and stand up, and
hold forth on any topic
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as seditious as that might be,
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as offensive as it
might be, they had the right.
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I think the western
freedom that we've experienced,
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most of us in the west,
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is wonderful, the
freedom to speak your mind,
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not always that way.
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I've been affected deeply
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since travelling to
Cambodia and seeing there,
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and the Killing Fields,
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a memorial to people imprisoned
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for nothing more than
just knowing something,
00:11:07.90\00:11:09.73
having glasses,
having education,
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hearing about a young woman
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executed for
silently or mostly notably,
00:11:13.34\00:11:17.24
singing to herself in
the middle of the night
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next to other prisoners,
00:11:19.14\00:11:20.78
a pop song from Happier Days,
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for that she was executed.
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As Christians,
as people of faith,
00:11:25.81\00:11:28.15
as people of any faith,
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we have to take
it as an obligation.
00:11:29.55\00:11:31.75
As the Bible says to
sing songs in the night,
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no matter how
desperate the situation,
00:11:34.69\00:11:37.16
we need to sing of our Creator,
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we need to proclaim in words
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that cannot be
chained or restricted,
00:11:41.40\00:11:44.23
our faith in God, and
our hope for the future,
00:11:44.27\00:11:46.84
and our certainty
00:11:46.87\00:11:48.57
that there will be
a day of redemption.
00:11:48.60\00:11:52.67
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:11:52.71\00:11:55.48