Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI190437A
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00:25 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:27 This is a program designed to bring you up to speed 00:30 with one of the many developments 00:32 and in the program, maybe several topics, 00:35 developments relating to religious liberty in the US 00:38 and around the world. 00:40 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty magazine. 00:43 And my guest on the program is Sonia DeWitt, 00:46 Attorney Sonia DeWitt, and Liberty author. 00:50 Let's talk about something that's been 00:53 troubling me for a long time now. 00:56 I watch current events, and I know you do too. 00:58 And it struck me is rather anomalous 01:01 for a western country, the United States, 01:04 back in the Bush era, Bush's son, 01:09 speech was a big issue and they established 01:11 free speech zones. 01:13 You remember that? 01:16 They didn't really want disruption to public events. 01:19 So there was a roped off area, sometimes as much, 01:23 I think in one case three miles from where the president was, 01:26 there will be a roped off area 01:27 entitled The Free Speech Zone 01:29 where people could speak freely. 01:33 How important does free speech to modern democracy 01:37 to real freedom and thereby to, of course, religious liberty, 01:42 which is a vital freedom? 01:44 Well, free speech is obviously essential to any free society. 01:48 If you don't have free speech, you don't have free thought, 01:52 you don't have free exercise of religion, 01:55 you don't have free communication 01:57 about grievances. 01:58 There are so many things 02:00 that are impacted by free speech. 02:01 Now is free speech good speech? 02:04 No, not necessarily. 02:07 The old saying applies, I will... 02:11 I may disagree with what you say, 02:13 but I will defend to the death your right to say it. 02:16 And I say that about religious liberty in general. 02:18 I can have huge issues with someone else's faith, 02:22 I can think it's puerile, foolish or whatever, 02:25 but if religious liberty means anything, 02:26 I have to go to any length to defend 02:30 someone's right to believe that. 02:32 If free speech is restricted for anybody, 02:36 it's not, there's no free speech. 02:37 Yeah. 02:38 And I think in our era right now, 02:40 people have forgotten the basic dynamic 02:43 that when speech is offensive to you 02:47 that it's most important to protect it. 02:49 Right. 02:50 Nobody needs to protect agreeable speech. 02:53 Right? 02:55 No, something everybody likes is doesn't need protection. 02:57 Right. 02:59 Do you think we're in a period where, 03:02 you know, it's under some threat? 03:05 Well, that's an interesting question. 03:08 I guess there's different answers to that question. 03:14 I think, in the current administration 03:18 with the latest... 03:22 The President's latest initiative 03:24 threatening campuses 03:25 who supposedly threatened for free speech... 03:28 Now it wasn't an executive order, 03:30 I wasn't even quite sure 03:31 if it was formally 'cause an executive orders... 03:33 I believe it was... 03:34 Is only a terminology, not a legal requirement. 03:37 It is an executive order, 03:39 but it doesn't really do anything. 03:43 I think what is more noteworthy about it is the fact 03:46 that he felt it was necessary and that I believe, 03:49 comes from this Christian right paranoia 03:52 about their rights being infringed 03:54 and them being victims of the secular society, 03:58 which I think is a way overblown fear 04:01 and they, you know, maybe... 04:05 I mean, there's opposition 04:08 on both sides to the other side's viewpoints. 04:11 There's no question about that. 04:13 But are Christians being targeted 04:15 for their viewpoints? 04:17 I don't see that. 04:18 Well, to me, there's a couple of things at play 04:21 on this issue of speech on college campuses. 04:26 The President says to withhold the money 04:30 and that bothers me whether or not 04:31 he's the one to withhold it. 04:33 On religious liberty, we've always cautioned 04:35 against taking, especially church institutions, 04:38 taking government money. 04:40 But even a private institution taking government money means 04:43 they're somewhat beholden, 04:45 and there is a controlling interest. 04:47 And when the government does partially fund something, 04:51 we would expect as citizens in a country 04:54 with the separation of church and state that the government 04:56 not be promoting any particular religious viewpoint 05:00 with all that institution 05:02 with the government money, right? 05:04 So it seems like Trump is trying to turn it 05:07 on its head in some ways 05:09 if it's on behalf of the religious right. 05:12 It makes sure that with the control 05:13 of government money, 05:15 they advance the concerns of a religious group. 05:18 Well, that concern is not over, 05:21 that's a covert motivation, 05:27 and that's not listed in his speaking about it 05:31 or in the regulation itself. 05:34 No, but we can guess that... 05:36 The other thing that I wonder is it as simple 05:42 as Ann Coulter was disinvited, I think recently on the campus, 05:48 and she has the ability 05:49 to raise the President's ire on her behalf. 05:54 Or against her as the case may be. 05:56 Well, yes. 05:57 Yes. 05:58 It's a very complicated relationship. 06:02 But I think it's easily provable 06:05 that on many public campuses and private campuses, 06:10 except that overtly church run ones, 06:13 I think the intellectual environment 06:15 is a little dismissive of what they say is historical, 06:19 fundamental Christianity, it's an element of sneering. 06:24 Well, certainly that's true. There is no question. 06:25 But that's not gonna be solved by government edict. 06:27 Right. 06:29 And, you know, that is their right. 06:32 Right. 06:33 As long as they don't engage, as long as they don't, 06:35 you know, overtly threaten or harass, 06:39 they have the right to smear all they want. 06:41 Yeah. 06:42 You know, that's the function of free speech. 06:45 Yeah. 06:46 So sneering is... 06:49 Well, yeah. 06:51 So we need to condition, especially since we're coming 06:55 from a Christian community, maybe we need to condition 06:58 our fellow Christians to be able to bear 07:00 a little bit of jeering and public shame 07:07 on the Lord's behalf. 07:08 I mean, we're... 07:09 The Bible says those who live godly in Christ 07:11 will suffer persecution. 07:13 Will suffer persecution. 07:15 So that shouldn't be a surprise to anybody. 07:16 And I don't think a little sneering 07:20 is hardcore persecution. 07:22 No, not compared to what's going on 07:24 in other parts of the world. 07:26 But it's a push me pull you sort of a question 07:29 because in addressing a concern if the religious right 07:33 are somewhat the force behind the scenes, 07:37 then they're actually creating another problem, 07:39 even as they're trying to solve one. 07:41 How do you see that? 07:43 Well, the government is in essence middling 07:45 in the free speech issue to increase 07:47 their particular speech. 07:50 Yes, well, that... 07:52 Free speech is not something that can be forced. 07:54 That goes back to the whole Christian 07:56 right agenda... 07:58 That they want to control every area of life 08:01 so that their agenda is advanced. 08:05 So that's pretty much a part of their whole agenda. 08:09 You want to make sure that Christians and Christians 08:13 of their variety 08:15 have preference in every sphere. 08:19 Now we don't much talk about it on this program 08:23 or at least haven't in the past, 08:25 but I know there's a strong movement 08:28 at the United Nations promoted by a whole front of countries 08:33 most of which are Islamic culture, 08:37 which sort of callus their way, they look at this issue. 08:40 And they are pressuring there to be an international 08:43 understanding against defamatory religious speech. 08:49 Well, you know, we don't want 08:50 to encourage loose and negative talk 08:54 about any religion, but when you're protecting 08:57 free space, I don't think this is right 09:00 to penalize someone that says something 09:02 that's offensive to another religion 09:04 because depending how you define it, 09:06 just explaining, say a doctrinal error 09:08 or saying I have a more satisfactory religion, 09:13 which is, an essence, 09:14 what evangelists are doing all the time, 09:16 that can be taken as offensive or someone 09:19 that chooses to. 09:20 And is that going to be criminalized 09:22 or the very least that just inhibits 09:25 your ability to talk about your own religion? 09:27 Right. Yeah. 09:28 And I think that proselytizing is the covert... 09:33 Preventing proselytizing is a covert reason 09:38 for that emphasis they want to avoid 09:41 because as you know, a lot of Islamic countries 09:44 forbid proselytizing by anyone who's not Muslim, 09:48 so... 09:49 I think most of them do one way or other. 09:54 Yeah. 09:56 No, it's a big problem. 09:58 It's a big problem. 09:59 And I think we're headed down that track even in the west 10:04 because we don't want to offend this political correctness. 10:09 He's now no longer pope, but I remember, 10:11 Benedict took a speech at Regensburg University 10:14 where he told a historical tale. 10:18 Didn't even make up the thing or put any slide on it, 10:20 just told a story of a discussion 10:22 between a Muslim military commander 10:26 and a Byzantine emperor. 10:27 And Muslims went on a violent streak 10:30 all around the world. 10:33 He should have had the right to speak. 10:36 Well, you have, you know, Salman Rushdie threatened 10:39 with that, because he wrote a novel. 10:43 Very complex. 10:45 He mentioned something 10:46 that many Muslim scholars know about. 10:48 There are some passages in the Quran 10:49 that are inexplicable. 10:51 And they've been called and he called them 10:53 in his book a Satanic Verses 10:56 because they don't seem to come from the angel. 11:01 It was a deeply theological argument. 11:02 It wasn't just a maligning statement 11:04 against Islam. 11:06 But that was unacceptable. 11:08 Of course, it wasn't really so long ago in the West, 11:11 and even in the US, where you could be 11:14 severely punished for blasphemy 11:16 speaking against Christianity 11:18 or taking the name of God in vain. 11:21 None of neither, which is a good thing, 11:23 but it's a bit horrific to think you could get end up 11:26 in the stock so severely fined or ostracized 11:29 for that sort of behavior that any longshoreman 11:32 now indulge themselves endlessly. 11:35 Yes, in fact, in the decades leading up to the Civil War, 11:40 blasphemy laws were very common 11:42 and you could be criminally punished 11:45 for speaking against Christianity. 11:48 And, moreover, Protestantism 11:53 was taught in public schools, 11:55 and they read from the Protestant Bible 11:59 and prayed Protestant prayers and any Catholic child 12:02 or anyone else who objected would be punished 12:04 if they didn't participate. 12:06 So it's actually pretty disturbing 12:12 that kind of de facto establishment continued 12:15 that late and that people were being forced to comply 12:19 with the Protestant religious viewpoint. 12:24 But we've moved on from that, haven't we? 12:28 And not all of the social changes 12:30 that have gone with the liberalization 12:32 are good, 12:33 but it does sort of begs the question 12:35 what would happen if religion was reinstated in society? 12:42 Would that mean re-imposition of such things? 12:45 Could we have a spiritual rejuvenation 12:49 as a nation without an unnecessary spill over 12:52 into legal prohibitions? 12:54 Well, I think my opinion 12:56 is that the two are mutually exclusive. 12:58 I don't think you can have a revival using weaker means. 13:02 It's a good point. 13:04 But you can't have a resurgence of interest in religion. 13:08 Well, yes. 13:10 And that's happened multiple times in our country. 13:11 We had two great awakenings, 13:13 and there's been many times when... 13:15 I hope the great awakenings 13:16 were more than just societal shift. 13:21 That was deep. 13:22 Well, that was my point. 13:24 I mean, I'm talking about the spiritual renewal 13:29 as opposed to legal enforcement of Christian doctrine. 13:34 And I think those two are really mutually exclusive 13:36 because you can't force a genuine renewal or revival. 13:41 Which is something 13:42 that those in the Christian community 13:45 who are pushing for political actions 13:47 should keep in mind. 13:48 Yes. 13:50 That's not how these great awakenings worked, 13:52 they didn't go to the lawyers, fortunately to the legislators. 13:57 They went to their Bibles, they went to camp meetings. 14:00 Even without PA system, 14:02 they listened to George Whitfield 14:04 in the first great awakening. 14:06 I was just listening to one of his sermons 14:09 the other day on a DVD on a CD rather, 14:13 powerful stuff, even read in a, 14:16 you know, major turn by the narrator, 14:18 still very good sermons. 14:20 I can see why people were affected by it. 14:23 This is a time for a short break. 14:25 Stay with us, we'll be back to continue free speech, 14:28 which means we are free to speak 14:31 freely on this program. |
Revised 2019-05-16