Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI190435B
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00:03 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider,
00:05 where we're continuing with my guest here, 00:09 a very interesting discussion about Christian leadership 00:14 and some of the ramifications in, 00:16 particularly in the United States 00:18 where we have separation of church and state. 00:20 But we now have 00:21 a politically active Christian group 00:26 who are wanting more and more power, 00:28 more government involvement. 00:29 So Christian leadership becomes hyper critical in this context, 00:32 isn't it? 00:34 Yes. 00:35 Well, when you have Christian leadership 00:36 that is ignoring the plainly expressed 00:38 principles of the Bible, 00:40 and particularly in the area of economics, 00:45 you know, I don't know if you heard 00:47 what Pat Robertson said about the murder of Khashoggi. 00:51 Yeah, I didn't hear that comment. 00:54 So tell our viewers what... 00:55 The Saudi Arabian journalist 00:58 who was murdered brutally in Turkey... 01:02 That was a state-organized tip hit operation. 01:04 Right. 01:05 And Congress was outraged by this 01:09 and they were going to thinking of cutting off aid to, 01:12 or the relations with Saudi Arabia. 01:15 And he said in an interview, 01:18 "Well, we've got $100 billion arms deal with Saudi Arabia, 01:23 and you know, it's terrible what they did to him 01:26 but you can't blow up 01:27 a $100 billion deal over one man." 01:31 Do you remember what Jesus and the high priest said? 01:35 "Better that one man die than the nation should perish." 01:38 Well, that's interesting because... 01:39 It's the same thinking. 01:41 This comedian Stephen Colbert said on his show, 01:45 he said, "Thank you, Reverend for elucidating 01:48 that central principles of Christianity. 01:51 How important can one man's death be?" 01:53 Yeah, yeah. 01:55 Now we're in a strangely relativistic age, 01:59 there's no question. 02:00 And it's not a time that lends itself easy 02:03 to people with unchanging moral principles. 02:06 You know, this is what I believe, 02:07 I'll die on it, you know, for it if necessary. 02:11 We are actually, 02:13 since we're watching Islamic terrorism 02:15 in its extreme form, 02:16 those are the sort of people that we tend to see that, 02:19 you know, kill themselves 02:20 and someone else for their faith. 02:21 So what used to be a Christian commitment, 02:24 you know, go to the flames if necessary, 02:27 is easily equated with that. 02:28 So nobody wants to be that sort of doctrinaire 02:31 and one dimensional. 02:35 Well, but the difference is that those people are dying 02:39 to force people to be like them. 02:42 There's a difference where you're dying 02:43 for your faith or killing for your faith. 02:45 Right. There's a huge difference. 02:46 The martyrs of the Christian era 02:48 were dying because they refused 02:50 to surrender their own individual faith. 02:52 Yeah. 02:54 And that's a very different dynamic. 02:56 And I think I have a hard time 02:59 imagining many of these Christian leaders 03:02 would be willing to actually die 03:04 for what they believe in. 03:06 Well, not too many people. 03:08 As Jesus says, you know, hardly a person 03:10 will give up their life for someone else. 03:13 Well, yes. 03:14 It goes against the graining of natural human impulse. 03:16 That's definitely true. 03:18 But that's the whole point of Christianity, 03:20 is it goes against our grain and more and more 03:23 it reminds me, I don't remember 03:25 whether it's Isaiah or Jeremiah, 03:27 it talks about woe to the shepherds 03:29 who are fleecing the flock. 03:31 And I see a lot of fleecing going on in Christianity. 03:35 Well, it's become big business, of course. 03:37 And which has been happening for a long time 03:40 but when that sort of big business 03:42 takes on a political agenda, 03:44 the route even accelerates. 03:46 Well, yes. Even with good intentions. 03:48 I think the dynamic is working against true spirituality. 03:52 Yes, well, you know, 03:54 the old statement, "Power corrupts 03:56 and absolute power corrupts absolutely." 03:58 But I'll state what I said on another program, 04:01 I still believe, 04:03 if not the leadership because that's a personal thing 04:05 and we don't know one person's heart. 04:08 But as a movement, I still believe 04:10 the vast majority of the Christians 04:12 that have allied themselves under this banner 04:15 have legitimate Christian concerns 04:17 with where society's gone, they're troubled by it. 04:19 The Bible speaks highly of people that sigh and cry 04:22 for the abominations done in the land. 04:25 But they've embraced the wrong solution 04:28 rather than seeking God, and seeking social justice, 04:31 and becoming a salt 04:33 and, you know, all the other images 04:34 to change society through their own witness. 04:37 They've decided to seize power 04:39 and basically apply by legal mandate 04:43 on other people 04:44 what they imperfectly even do in their own life. 04:47 And that's a corrupting sort of dynamic. 04:50 Well, exactly. 04:52 And Christians are called to be the salt of the earth by being, 04:57 by exemplifying the principles of Christianity. 05:00 And if that's how 05:02 the early Christians changed the world, 05:05 not by trying to force other people 05:07 to become Christians, 05:09 but by living the example of Christianity to the extent 05:13 that people were drawn to it and were willing to embrace it 05:16 and actually die for it. 05:19 So it's... 05:21 Christianity is an individual thing. 05:23 It's an individual commitment that you make and morality... 05:28 Through Christianity. 05:29 Right. 05:31 Morality can only be individual, 05:34 morality can never be corporate. 05:36 You can't... 05:37 By definition, you can't enforce morality. 05:39 Well, there are corporate mores, 05:42 social norms, 05:43 and there's an undeniable 05:47 bleed through, if you like, between the moral views 05:50 that say religious community have 05:51 and what society may accept as the social mores 05:55 but they're not one and the same. 05:56 No. 05:58 And I think there's some confusion 05:59 drifting into American society, 06:01 particularly about that sort of separation if you like. 06:06 Right. Right. 06:07 And Christianity allows freedom, 06:11 allows people to make their own choices 06:13 even if they're the wrong choices. 06:15 Yeah. Yeah. 06:16 And, you know, back to our discussions 06:19 of the US Constitution, 06:21 with the dynamic resting in the individual 06:24 and the people's power being granted to the government. 06:27 I think it's consistent 06:29 with the highest ideals of Christianity. 06:31 Yes, I do too. 06:33 And at least as envisioned, 06:36 not as practiced at any time in history but... 06:39 They're back to leadership. 06:41 In the United States at the moment, 06:43 we appear to have strong leadership 06:46 with the capitalists on strong. 06:48 I would argue with the strong part but... 06:52 Well, I said, appear. 06:53 Right, right. 06:54 But we have aggressive leadership. 06:57 Okay. Yeah, I agree with that. 06:58 Does the answer to moral revitalization 07:00 lie in that direction? 07:03 Clearly not, because as I said before, 07:06 moral regeneration is an individual process, 07:09 it doesn't happen on a corporate level. 07:12 It can happen with many individuals together. 07:15 But it doesn't happen... 07:17 It cannot be enforced from above. 07:21 We're running out of time quickly. 07:23 But some well meaning people have created an analog 07:28 between our present leadership 07:30 and an Old Testament dynamics of Darius and his... 07:35 It's Cyrus. 07:37 I'm sorry, Cyrus, yeah, 07:39 his friendliness toward the Jews 07:41 and helping the rebuilding of Jerusalem. 07:44 What do you think of that? 07:45 I just think it's a red herring analogy. 07:48 I think that it's completely inappropriate. 07:51 I think that Cyrus, 07:54 if you look at the histories of the kings, 07:57 I mean, for example, 07:58 Nebuchadnezzar actually became a follower... 08:01 And he is another one that... 08:02 He became a follower of God. 08:04 And he was... 08:05 And God actually had to humble him. 08:07 He had to basically knock him down 08:09 to make him a follower of God. 08:11 So it seems clear to me that even if Cyrus 08:14 was not exactly a follower of God, 08:17 he was certainly amenable to God's suggestions. 08:20 And he was... 08:23 He believed, or at least he had faith, 08:26 sympathy, toward... 08:27 But surely it's not necessary to sanctify a civil ruler 08:32 just because some of their actions 08:34 free of advantageous for faith, 08:35 that's really... 08:37 Oh, absolutely not. Wait, wait. 08:38 So leadership, we need leadership. 08:41 What would you hope 08:43 would happen with the Christian community? 08:44 How will we find a way where we look for leadership? 08:49 Well, I think it's important to recognize again, that it's, 08:54 Christianity is an individual thing, 08:56 and it can't be enforced by law. 08:59 In fact, the attempt to enforce religion by law 09:02 always fails 09:04 because you cannot really make people moral 09:08 by creating laws. 09:11 In the Book of Revelation 09:13 it speaks of the judgment being set 09:15 and the books being opened. 09:18 Many people are afraid of such a judgment. 09:20 But I look forward to a divine judge 09:22 looking at my case with a little charity as well. 09:25 But here on earth and here in the United States, 09:28 way too many people 09:30 have unreal expectations of a Supreme Court. 09:33 And far too many people are willing to manipulate it. 09:37 There are many court watches 09:38 and as we've discussed on this program, 09:40 there's a good argument to be made 09:41 that certain voices and influences 09:44 have been inordinately deleteriously influential 09:50 in court discussions. 09:51 We need to make sure in our feedback 09:54 in the United States 09:56 and similarly in other countries, 09:58 that we don't fulfill what also the Bible says 10:00 will characterize the end of time, 10:02 a time when the judges pervert justice. 10:06 We want good and well administered justice, 10:10 well reasoned, judicial inquiry, 10:13 and decisions that reflect the best 10:15 that men can have, an offer, 10:17 but at the same time it's far, far short of divine judgment 10:22 and a divine determination. 10:25 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2019-05-16