Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI190435A
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00:26 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:28 This is a program designed 00:30 to bring you up-to-date information, 00:32 insights, and discussion on religious liberty developments 00:36 in the US and around the world. 00:38 My name is Lincoln Steed, 00:40 and I'm editor of Liberty Magazine, 00:42 as well as the face and the voice for this program. 00:45 And my guest on this program is Attorney Sonia DeWitt. 00:50 Welcome, Sonia. 00:51 You also have distinguished yourself 00:54 by writing some recent articles on Liberty, 00:56 with more to come. 00:59 Let's talk about something that is really undercurrent 01:01 in lot of what is discussed on this program. 01:04 In the United States, 01:05 there's really been a huge sea change 01:09 in how politics and religion interact as a final pay off, 01:14 if you like of the Moral Majority 01:16 and the Christian Right's rise in the '70s and later. 01:21 And it begs a question that you and I, I think agree, 01:23 we need to talk about Christian leadership 01:26 in the community, 01:28 in the country at large. 01:29 How should that function? 01:30 How is it functioning? 01:32 Well, it's... Or is it dysfunctional? 01:35 Well, I'm not gonna generalize across Christianity, 01:38 but certainly in the leadership of the Christian Right, 01:41 the people like Pat Robertson, 01:44 Franklin Graham, Ann Coulter, 01:47 people like that are giving, in my opinion, 01:51 giving Christianity a bad name for multiple reasons. 01:53 And it's very disturbing to me as a Christian 01:57 when I hear these things being said. 01:59 And people, who are secular, look at those things and say, 02:03 "This is what Christianity is." 02:05 And I'm like, "No, no, no, you're wrong, 02:07 that's not Christianity." 02:09 Well, secular people, but more importantly, perhaps, 02:12 in the Islamic world, which is... 02:16 How many billion people in the world, 02:19 spread over the whole globe? 02:20 Even Australia, 02:21 where I'm from originally has the largest Muslim country, 02:24 200 million Muslims. 02:26 So they're all over. 02:27 And they look at the West 02:30 and in particularly United States, 02:31 and they say, "This is the Christian West, 02:34 this is the Christian country." 02:36 We don't see it that way. 02:37 We see Christianity functioning within this larger society, 02:41 but they equate the whole thing, 02:42 and how it's lead, and how it administers itself, 02:45 this is all Exhibit A for Christianity. 02:48 Well, yes. 02:49 Is that dangerous? Yes. 02:51 It's very dangerous because there are lot of things, 02:53 and one of the things that I have been noticing lately, 02:57 the Christian Right propaganda 03:00 really used to be all about morality. 03:03 But lately, I've noticed that there's a shift 03:06 to being more nakedly about money and prosperity, 03:12 and that is very disturbing 03:13 because the Bible makes it clear that, 03:16 that's not what Christianity is about. 03:18 The prosperity gospel, it's really taken over. 03:20 Right. 03:22 I should remember the name of the guy 03:24 that wrote the Book of Virtues. 03:28 He was an advisor during the... 03:31 Oh, Bennett. 03:32 Yes, Bennett. William Bennett. 03:34 Didn't he write the Book of Virtues? 03:35 And I think that was very problematic, 03:39 but he also planted the idea 03:42 that there's prosperity comes to a nation that's virtuous. 03:46 Right. 03:47 And there is some biblical support for that, 03:49 but it's not... 03:53 Jesus also made it clear in this world, 03:54 "Do you have tribulations?" 03:56 So it's not... 03:57 Jesus didn't say if you're a Christian, 04:00 you're gonna be rich. 04:01 Well, on the contrary. Right. 04:03 In fact, it's harder for a rich man 04:05 to get into the kingdom 04:07 than the camel through the eye of the needle, 04:09 which was little narrow gate in the wall of Jerusalem. 04:12 Right. 04:13 And, you know, there are lot of statements that Jesus made 04:17 counseling against reliance on wealth. 04:21 And when the Christian leaders are making statements 04:23 that essentially equate godliness with prosperity, 04:28 that's very, very disturbing thing. 04:30 And I listen to a lot of the discussion, 04:33 public discussions on both Christian politicians 04:37 and the so called Christian Right. 04:39 And I've heard them say something that bothers me, 04:44 not just the wealth comes from good Christian behavior, 04:49 but that as a good wealthy Christian, 04:52 you earn that money, that's yours. 04:55 The government should not take it away from you. 04:58 You're not gonna give it to the less worthy. 05:01 Have you heard them say that? 05:03 They say it straight and it's not sort of hinted at, 05:07 it's said straight. 05:08 This is mine, I earned it. 05:10 I'm not gonna give it to social welfare program. 05:15 It's very consistent with their philosophy, clearly, 05:18 because that's the whole idea of capitalism, 05:22 unbridled capitalism, no regulation. 05:24 Yeah. What's mine is mine. 05:26 But you're a good student of history. 05:27 You know that capitalism started off very badly 05:30 in the United States, 05:32 the Robert Berenson and all the rest. 05:34 And it was the antitrust legislation, 05:36 another moves that brought it under control 05:41 and still allowed that element 05:43 to give a dynamism to this economy, 05:45 but it really was forced equality, 05:49 both and I hinted this to you. 05:51 Even the trade union war with the capital 05:55 was a very hard battle in the US. 05:59 And if it hadn't been for the trade unions, 06:01 the wealthy people would still have us all, 06:04 you know, working 18 hours a day 06:05 and living in a renting from the factory, 06:08 and buying from the factory store. 06:09 Right. 06:11 Capitalism left to itself unregulated. 06:13 It's not wealth and freedom for all people hardly. 06:17 No, not at all. 06:18 And, in fact, it's interesting 06:20 because many elements of the Christian Right 06:23 talk a lot about theocracy, 06:25 and they want to go back to the theocracy of Israel, 06:27 but the... 06:29 Yeah. I'm glad you said that. 06:31 You're very back up on this program, 06:34 over and over again on this program, 06:36 I've reminded people of what I know 06:38 and you can prove it, 06:39 but it's not self-evident to most people, 06:41 that an undercurrent of discussion 06:43 on the Christian Right, 06:45 two movements, one deriving from the other, 06:48 the Christian reconstructionist, 06:51 you're aware of them? 06:52 Yes. 06:53 They want to establish an Old Testament regime 06:55 in the United States, 06:57 modeled directly after the Old Testament. 06:58 And my way of describing this basically, 07:00 Christian Taliban rule. Right. 07:02 It's a Christian sharia. 07:04 And as part of that, you can read their stuff, 07:07 and I've heard them on TV on occasion 07:10 say that when they gain control, 07:12 after six months cooling off period, 07:14 it'll be mandatory death for Sabbath breaking, 07:18 which they mean Sunday breaking, 07:20 for adultery and for homosexuality. 07:24 And one of their kinder souls appeared on TV, 07:28 you know, about two, three years ago, 07:29 and he said they rethought their position on homosexuality 07:33 and they decided that if you kept quiet about it, 07:36 they would not have the mandatory death. 07:38 So they are quite a kind group. 07:40 And they have informed the larger 07:44 politically active Christian Right community, 07:46 and so what's bled through is this dominionist view 07:49 which is a Triumphalist /Old Testament serve 07:51 and approach to this. 07:53 Well, but the interesting thing about that 07:55 is that clearly they haven't read 07:57 the Old Testament very well because... 08:01 That was Jesus' shots to the Jews of His day. 08:03 You read the scriptures and they speak of me. 08:05 They didn't see the higher spiritual value. 08:06 I recently wrote an article called, 08:09 "So You Want a Theocracy? 08:10 Are You Sure?" 08:12 Because basically, the theocratic system 08:16 under the Jews was very socialistic in nature. 08:19 It was not a pure capitalist society. 08:22 It was a mixture of capitalism 08:24 and what we would call socialism. 08:27 Is socialism is a fail... 08:28 Oh, not socialism, but communists 08:30 which was a government applied 08:34 socialist Darwinian type concept is a failed thing. 08:40 But the theory, the ideal of communism 08:42 is much closer to the biblical approach 08:46 than capitalism. 08:47 Right. 08:48 Well, the interesting thing, the closest thing 08:52 I would think to the biblical system 08:54 under the Israelite system was 08:56 it would be what we call democratic socialism, 09:00 because they had some elements of socialism 09:02 and some elements of capitalism. 09:06 But the interesting thing was that 09:08 land reverted to its original owners every 50 years. 09:12 Interest was not allowed to be charged, 09:15 they allowed slavery, 09:16 but slaves had to be freed every seven years. 09:20 So there were many regulations on that. 09:25 And furthermore, on the Dominionist concept 09:28 that the earth is mine. 09:31 The New, Old Testaments specifically states 09:34 the earth is God's and you're just using it. 09:36 Well, when you say, 09:39 in your article you challenge people, 09:41 you know, would you want a theocracy. 09:43 The fallacy on that urge is that 09:47 we don't have God with us, 09:48 as He was with the Shekinah glory. 09:51 So the theocracy nowadays all that means 09:53 that certain people to tell you what God wants. 09:57 So in other words, 09:58 the dictatorship of the priests, 10:00 that's what it boils down to, and that's patently dangerous. 10:04 Right. It's very dangerous. 10:05 If we could bring God, 10:07 you know, God's not coming till the new earth, 10:09 we know it from the Bible. 10:10 But if we could bring God down from His throne 10:13 to sit in Washington, yes, theocracy would be great. 10:17 Well, actually, if you look at the Old Testament, 10:21 the theocracy didn't work even for them. 10:23 Even with God, their invisible form, 10:26 it really didn't work, 10:28 and eventually they were saying, 10:29 "Oh, we want a king, we want a king." 10:30 Well, that's what happened. 10:32 It didn't work because human nature is frustrated. 10:34 Obviously not because of God, 10:35 but because human nature 10:38 couldn't sustain an ideal system. 10:40 Even though, they had an ideal system, 10:42 it couldn't be sustained... 10:43 And I preached a sermon on that. 10:45 Yeah, remember what when they said that, 10:47 and same it was, of course, discouraged because he said, 10:51 "They're rejecting me," 10:53 and God said, "No, they're rejecting me." 10:54 So he sent Samuel out to talk to the people, 10:56 and he says, "You want a king? 10:58 He will do this, he'll take, 10:59 you know, I think it was a tenth of your property, 11:02 he'll take your young men for the military." 11:05 Not a good outline, so if you compare that outline, 11:09 this is even an imperfectly applied theocracy. 11:12 I think they were worse off under the king. 11:15 Yes. Well, that's arguable. 11:18 But there were different problems 11:22 and judges and the kings. 11:24 But even if you look at theocracy 11:28 from the ideal viewpoint, 11:30 it clearly was not the capitalistic society 11:33 that we have. 11:34 It was very different. 11:36 And there were a lot of social justice regulations. 11:38 And interestingly enough, 11:40 there's multiple statements about, 11:43 you will love the foreigner, you will treat them well, 11:47 and you will not abuse them. 11:50 So that is also very inconsistent with it. 11:52 What's that statement is? 11:54 I think as the Old Testament says, 11:55 "What does the Lord require of thee?" 11:57 And it says, "But to do justly." 11:58 Yes. 12:00 So, yeah, we should work for justice, 12:01 and fairness, and treating the strangers 12:05 'cause the stranger... 12:06 If you go to the theocracy, the stranger within your gates 12:08 has to obey the same religious laws, 12:11 and I don't think that's good for the modern model 12:16 where we'd enforce other religions to... 12:19 I'm not suggesting, I think theocracy is a bad idea 12:23 all the way around, 12:24 but if you're going to espouse the idea 12:28 of theocracy, it's a package deal. 12:30 You can't just take elements of it that you like 12:33 and ignore elements that you don't like. 12:35 Well, the nearest to a theocracy, unfortunately, 12:37 I'm sure you have opinions on it, 12:39 is the Medieval Church with and the kingly power 12:43 that claims to speak for God. 12:45 And God help us if we ever allow that regime 12:49 would still exist in its revitalized form, 12:52 if we ever allow that to have a controlling authority 12:55 in the world or even in the United States, 12:58 but we seem to be heading slightly that way. 13:00 Well, yes. 13:02 And I don't know, have you read "The Keys of This Blood" 13:05 by Malachi Martin. 13:06 Yes, of course. Yeah, I haven't really read it. 13:08 It's impossible to read but... 13:10 Well, I read. But I did. 13:12 I did read about what he says about Adventist 13:14 and what I found very interesting about that is, 13:18 well, he talks out of both sides of his mouth. 13:21 For our viewers, 3ABN is run by Adventist lay people. 13:25 And you and I are members 13:27 of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. 13:29 Of course, we reach out to all fellow believers, 13:33 you know, that believe in Christ 13:36 and believe in justice and so on, 13:37 and want to ally with us on certain issues, 13:40 but Adventist have a particular view, right? 13:42 Right. Prophetic view. 13:43 Yes. 13:45 And what was the point you were telling? 13:46 So he talks about Adventists and a few other groups 13:51 as people who believe in the right to be wrong. 13:55 And I think that's really the core of the issue 13:59 because everybody believes 14:01 you should have religious freedom 14:03 when you're right. 14:04 But the... 14:06 What real religious freedom 14:09 is that you have the right to be wrong, 14:12 and God gives us the right to be wrong. 14:14 I mean, that's why sin existed in the first place. 14:17 You're right. 14:18 A few years ago, I was at an old day seminar 14:21 at Catholic University in Washington. 14:23 And I went there to hear Cardinal Dolan 14:26 speak on religious liberty. 14:28 And I was sitting very close. 14:30 There was the table underneath the lectern, 14:32 and he was holding forth, 14:33 actually, railing against Obamacare. 14:36 And he was holding forth, and I was watching him, 14:39 and I could tell you he was having 14:40 a little internal discussion, and he stopped. 14:43 And he looks at his audience 14:45 which was overwhelmingly Catholic, and he said, 14:47 "You know," he said, "Roman Catholics 14:49 would once not have spoken this way 14:50 about religious liberty." 14:52 He said, "We once held that era has no rights." 14:58 And this is what you're talking about, 15:00 and that view is coming back again 15:02 that "You don't have a right to be wrong." 15:05 Right. 15:06 To be wrong itself is punishable. 15:10 And that means that nobody has any rights 15:14 because if you stray even the slightest bit. 15:17 This is what happened in the Middle Ages. 15:19 If you stray even the slightest bit 15:21 from orthodoxy, 15:23 and what is orthodoxy? 15:25 I mean, the orthodoxy changes over time. 15:28 So basically, nobody has any religious rights, 15:31 you have to totally... 15:34 Well, it's a former religious paternalism. 15:35 We're heading into the nanny state, 15:39 even in the United States, the state knows better, 15:40 it will do it what it thinks is right for the citizen. 15:43 So you join that with the religious view 15:45 that has the same, 15:46 and it's very bad for religious freedom. 15:48 We'll take a break and we'll be back 15:50 to continue what I'm sure you'll be finding 15:53 a captivating discussion of Christian leadership. |
Revised 2019-05-16