Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is a program designed
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to bring you
up-to-date information,
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insights, and discussion on
religious liberty developments
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in the US and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
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and I'm editor
of Liberty Magazine,
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as well as the face and
the voice for this program.
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And my guest on this program
is Attorney Sonia DeWitt.
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Welcome, Sonia.
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You also have
distinguished yourself
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by writing some
recent articles on Liberty,
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with more to come.
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Let's talk about something
that is really undercurrent
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in lot of what is
discussed on this program.
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In the United States,
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there's really
been a huge sea change
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in how politics and religion
interact as a final pay off,
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if you like of
the Moral Majority
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and the Christian Right's
rise in the '70s and later.
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And it begs a question
that you and I, I think agree,
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we need to talk
about Christian leadership
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in the community,
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in the country at large.
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How should that function?
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How is it functioning?
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Well, it's... Or
is it dysfunctional?
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Well, I'm not gonna
generalize across Christianity,
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but certainly in the leadership
of the Christian Right,
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the people like Pat Robertson,
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Franklin Graham, Ann Coulter,
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people like that are
giving, in my opinion,
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giving Christianity a bad
name for multiple reasons.
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And it's very
disturbing to me as a Christian
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when I hear these
things being said.
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And people, who are secular,
look at those things and say,
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"This is what Christianity is."
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And I'm like, "No,
no, no, you're wrong,
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that's not Christianity."
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Well, secular people, but
more importantly, perhaps,
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in the Islamic
world, which is...
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How many billion
people in the world,
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spread over the whole globe?
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Even Australia,
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where I'm from originally
has the largest Muslim country,
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200 million Muslims.
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So they're all over.
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And they look at the West
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and in
particularly United States,
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and they say, "This
is the Christian West,
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this is the Christian country."
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We don't see it that way.
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We see Christianity functioning
within this larger society,
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but they equate the whole thing,
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and how it's lead, and
how it administers itself,
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this is all
Exhibit A for Christianity.
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Well, yes.
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Is that dangerous? Yes.
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It's very dangerous
because there are lot of things,
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and one of the things that
I have been noticing lately,
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the Christian Right propaganda
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really used to be
all about morality.
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But lately, I've
noticed that there's a shift
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to being more nakedly
about money and prosperity,
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and that is very disturbing
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because the Bible
makes it clear that,
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that's not what
Christianity is about.
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The prosperity gospel,
it's really taken over.
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Right.
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I should remember
the name of the guy
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that wrote the Book of Virtues.
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He was an advisor during the...
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Oh, Bennett.
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Yes, Bennett. William Bennett.
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Didn't he write
the Book of Virtues?
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And I think that
was very problematic,
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but he also planted the idea
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that there's prosperity comes
to a nation that's virtuous.
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Right.
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And there is some
biblical support for that,
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but it's not...
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Jesus also made it
clear in this world,
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"Do you have tribulations?"
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So it's not...
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Jesus didn't say
if you're a Christian,
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you're gonna be rich.
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Well, on the contrary. Right.
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In fact, it's
harder for a rich man
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to get into the kingdom
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than the camel
through the eye of the needle,
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which was little narrow
gate in the wall of Jerusalem.
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Right.
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And, you know, there are lot
of statements that Jesus made
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counseling against
reliance on wealth.
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And when the Christian
leaders are making statements
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that essentially equate
godliness with prosperity,
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that's very,
very disturbing thing.
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And I listen to a
lot of the discussion,
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public discussions on
both Christian politicians
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and the so
called Christian Right.
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And I've heard them say
something that bothers me,
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not just the wealth comes
from good Christian behavior,
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but that as a
good wealthy Christian,
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you earn that
money, that's yours.
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The government should
not take it away from you.
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You're not gonna give
it to the less worthy.
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Have you heard them say that?
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They say it straight and
it's not sort of hinted at,
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it's said straight.
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This is mine, I earned it.
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I'm not gonna give it
to social welfare program.
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It's very consistent with
their philosophy, clearly,
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because that's the
whole idea of capitalism,
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unbridled
capitalism, no regulation.
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Yeah. What's mine is mine.
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But you're a good
student of history.
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You know that capitalism
started off very badly
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in the United States,
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the Robert
Berenson and all the rest.
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And it was the
antitrust legislation,
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another moves that
brought it under control
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and still allowed that element
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to give a
dynamism to this economy,
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but it really
was forced equality,
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both and I hinted this to you.
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Even the trade
union war with the capital
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was a very hard
battle in the US.
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And if it hadn't
been for the trade unions,
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the wealthy people
would still have us all,
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you know, working 18 hours a day
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and living in a
renting from the factory,
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and buying from
the factory store.
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Right.
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Capitalism left to
itself unregulated.
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It's not wealth and
freedom for all people hardly.
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No, not at all.
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And, in fact, it's interesting
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because many elements
of the Christian Right
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talk a lot about theocracy,
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and they want to go back
to the theocracy of Israel,
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but the...
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Yeah. I'm glad you said that.
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You're very back
up on this program,
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over and over
again on this program,
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I've reminded
people of what I know
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and you can prove it,
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but it's not
self-evident to most people,
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that an
undercurrent of discussion
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on the Christian Right,
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two movements, one
deriving from the other,
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the Christian reconstructionist,
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you're aware of them?
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Yes.
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They want to establish
an Old Testament regime
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in the United States,
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modeled directly
after the Old Testament.
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And my way of
describing this basically,
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Christian Taliban rule. Right.
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It's a Christian sharia.
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And as part of that,
you can read their stuff,
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and I've heard
them on TV on occasion
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say that when they gain control,
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after six months
cooling off period,
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it'll be mandatory
death for Sabbath breaking,
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which they mean Sunday breaking,
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for adultery and
for homosexuality.
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And one of their
kinder souls appeared on TV,
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you know, about
two, three years ago,
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and he said they rethought
their position on homosexuality
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and they decided that
if you kept quiet about it,
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they would not have
the mandatory death.
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So they are quite a kind group.
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And they have
informed the larger
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politically active
Christian Right community,
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and so what's bled
through is this dominionist view
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which is a Triumphalist
/Old Testament serve
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and approach to this.
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Well, but the
interesting thing about that
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is that clearly
they haven't read
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the Old Testament
very well because...
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That was Jesus' shots
to the Jews of His day.
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You read the
scriptures and they speak of me.
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They didn't see the
higher spiritual value.
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I recently wrote
an article called,
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"So You Want a Theocracy?
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Are You Sure?"
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Because basically,
the theocratic system
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under the Jews was
very socialistic in nature.
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It was not a pure
capitalist society.
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It was a mixture of capitalism
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and what we
would call socialism.
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Is socialism is a fail...
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Oh, not
socialism, but communists
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which was a government applied
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socialist Darwinian type
concept is a failed thing.
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But the theory,
the ideal of communism
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is much closer to
the biblical approach
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than capitalism.
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Right.
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Well, the interesting
thing, the closest thing
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I would think to
the biblical system
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under the Israelite system was
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it would be what we
call democratic socialism,
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because they had
some elements of socialism
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and some elements of capitalism.
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But the
interesting thing was that
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land reverted to its
original owners every 50 years.
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Interest was not
allowed to be charged,
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they allowed slavery,
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but slaves had to be
freed every seven years.
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So there were many
regulations on that.
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And furthermore, on
the Dominionist concept
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that the earth is mine.
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The New, Old
Testaments specifically states
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the earth is God's
and you're just using it.
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Well, when you say,
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in your article
you challenge people,
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you know, would
you want a theocracy.
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The fallacy on that urge is that
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we don't have God with us,
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as He was with
the Shekinah glory.
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So the theocracy
nowadays all that means
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that certain people to
tell you what God wants.
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So in other words,
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the dictatorship of the priests,
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that's what it boils down to,
and that's patently dangerous.
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Right. It's very dangerous.
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If we could bring God,
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you know, God's not
coming till the new earth,
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we know it from the Bible.
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But if we could bring
God down from His throne
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to sit in Washington,
yes, theocracy would be great.
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Well, actually, if you
look at the Old Testament,
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the theocracy
didn't work even for them.
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Even with God,
their invisible form,
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it really didn't work,
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and eventually they were saying,
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"Oh, we want a
king, we want a king."
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Well, that's what happened.
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It didn't work because
human nature is frustrated.
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Obviously not because of God,
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but because human nature
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couldn't
sustain an ideal system.
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Even though, they
had an ideal system,
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it couldn't be sustained...
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And I preached a sermon on that.
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Yeah, remember what
when they said that,
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and same it was, of course,
discouraged because he said,
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"They're rejecting me,"
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and God said, "No,
they're rejecting me."
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So he sent Samuel out
to talk to the people,
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and he says, "You want a king?
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He will do this, he'll take,
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you know, I think it was
a tenth of your property,
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he'll take your young
men for the military."
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Not a good outline, so
if you compare that outline,
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this is even an
imperfectly applied theocracy.
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I think they were
worse off under the king.
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Yes. Well, that's arguable.
00:11:15.64\00:11:18.07
But there were
different problems
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and judges and the kings.
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But even if you
look at theocracy
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from the ideal viewpoint,
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it clearly was not
the capitalistic society
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that we have.
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It was very different.
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And there were a lot of
social justice regulations.
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And interestingly enough,
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there's multiple
statements about,
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you will love the foreigner,
you will treat them well,
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and you will not abuse them.
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So that is also very
inconsistent with it.
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What's that statement is?
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I think as the
Old Testament says,
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"What does the
Lord require of thee?"
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And it says, "But to do justly."
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Yes.
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So, yeah, we
should work for justice,
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and fairness, and
treating the strangers
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'cause the stranger...
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If you go to the theocracy,
the stranger within your gates
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has to obey the
same religious laws,
00:12:08.96\00:12:11.69
and I don't think that's
good for the modern model
00:12:11.73\00:12:16.46
where we'd enforce
other religions to...
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I'm not suggesting, I
think theocracy is a bad idea
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all the way around,
00:12:23.51\00:12:24.91
but if you're
going to espouse the idea
00:12:24.94\00:12:28.38
of theocracy,
it's a package deal.
00:12:28.41\00:12:30.85
You can't just take
elements of it that you like
00:12:30.88\00:12:33.35
and ignore elements
that you don't like.
00:12:33.38\00:12:35.68
Well, the nearest to a
theocracy, unfortunately,
00:12:35.72\00:12:37.72
I'm sure you
have opinions on it,
00:12:37.75\00:12:39.59
is the Medieval Church
with and the kingly power
00:12:39.62\00:12:43.19
that claims to speak for God.
00:12:43.22\00:12:45.86
And God help us if we
ever allow that regime
00:12:45.89\00:12:49.76
would still exist in
its revitalized form,
00:12:49.80\00:12:52.67
if we ever allow that to
have a controlling authority
00:12:52.70\00:12:55.90
in the world or even
in the United States,
00:12:55.94\00:12:58.54
but we seem to be
heading slightly that way.
00:12:58.57\00:13:00.64
Well, yes.
00:13:00.68\00:13:02.01
And I don't know, have you
read "The Keys of This Blood"
00:13:02.04\00:13:05.01
by Malachi Martin.
00:13:05.05\00:13:06.38
Yes, of course. Yeah,
I haven't really read it.
00:13:06.41\00:13:08.12
It's impossible to read but...
00:13:08.15\00:13:10.75
Well, I read. But I did.
00:13:10.79\00:13:12.12
I did read about what
he says about Adventist
00:13:12.15\00:13:14.92
and what I found very
interesting about that is,
00:13:14.96\00:13:18.09
well, he talks out of
both sides of his mouth.
00:13:18.13\00:13:21.16
For our viewers, 3ABN is
run by Adventist lay people.
00:13:21.20\00:13:25.80
And you and I are members
00:13:25.83\00:13:27.40
of the
Seventh-day Adventist Church.
00:13:27.44\00:13:29.67
Of course, we reach out
to all fellow believers,
00:13:29.70\00:13:33.48
you know, that believe in Christ
00:13:33.51\00:13:36.04
and believe in
justice and so on,
00:13:36.08\00:13:37.58
and want to ally
with us on certain issues,
00:13:37.61\00:13:40.18
but Adventist have a
particular view, right?
00:13:40.22\00:13:42.48
Right. Prophetic view.
00:13:42.52\00:13:43.85
Yes.
00:13:43.89\00:13:45.22
And what was the
point you were telling?
00:13:45.25\00:13:46.59
So he talks about Adventists
and a few other groups
00:13:46.62\00:13:51.43
as people who believe
in the right to be wrong.
00:13:51.46\00:13:55.03
And I think that's
really the core of the issue
00:13:55.06\00:13:59.17
because everybody believes
00:13:59.20\00:14:01.77
you should have
religious freedom
00:14:01.80\00:14:03.14
when you're right.
00:14:03.17\00:14:04.74
But the...
00:14:04.77\00:14:06.81
What real religious freedom
00:14:06.84\00:14:09.81
is that you have
the right to be wrong,
00:14:09.84\00:14:12.25
and God gives us
the right to be wrong.
00:14:12.28\00:14:14.35
I mean, that's why sin
existed in the first place.
00:14:14.38\00:14:17.15
You're right.
00:14:17.19\00:14:18.52
A few years ago, I
was at an old day seminar
00:14:18.55\00:14:20.99
at Catholic
University in Washington.
00:14:21.02\00:14:23.53
And I went there
to hear Cardinal Dolan
00:14:23.56\00:14:26.80
speak on religious liberty.
00:14:26.83\00:14:28.66
And I was sitting very close.
00:14:28.70\00:14:30.10
There was the table
underneath the lectern,
00:14:30.13\00:14:32.00
and he was holding forth,
00:14:32.03\00:14:33.47
actually, railing
against Obamacare.
00:14:33.50\00:14:36.87
And he was holding
forth, and I was watching him,
00:14:36.91\00:14:39.04
and I could tell
you he was having
00:14:39.07\00:14:40.41
a little internal
discussion, and he stopped.
00:14:40.44\00:14:43.95
And he looks at his audience
00:14:43.98\00:14:45.31
which was overwhelmingly
Catholic, and he said,
00:14:45.35\00:14:47.08
"You know," he
said, "Roman Catholics
00:14:47.12\00:14:49.32
would once not
have spoken this way
00:14:49.35\00:14:50.85
about religious liberty."
00:14:50.89\00:14:52.55
He said, "We once held
that era has no rights."
00:14:52.59\00:14:58.56
And this is what
you're talking about,
00:14:58.59\00:15:00.46
and that view is
coming back again
00:15:00.50\00:15:02.66
that "You don't have
a right to be wrong."
00:15:02.70\00:15:05.10
Right.
00:15:05.13\00:15:06.47
To be wrong
itself is punishable.
00:15:06.50\00:15:10.41
And that means that
nobody has any rights
00:15:10.44\00:15:14.41
because if you stray
even the slightest bit.
00:15:14.44\00:15:17.75
This is what
happened in the Middle Ages.
00:15:17.78\00:15:19.18
If you stray
even the slightest bit
00:15:19.21\00:15:21.38
from orthodoxy,
00:15:21.42\00:15:23.55
and what is orthodoxy?
00:15:23.59\00:15:25.19
I mean, the
orthodoxy changes over time.
00:15:25.22\00:15:27.99
So basically, nobody
has any religious rights,
00:15:28.02\00:15:31.36
you have to totally...
00:15:31.39\00:15:34.03
Well, it's a former
religious paternalism.
00:15:34.06\00:15:35.83
We're heading
into the nanny state,
00:15:35.86\00:15:38.97
even in the United
States, the state knows better,
00:15:39.00\00:15:40.77
it will do it what it
thinks is right for the citizen.
00:15:40.80\00:15:43.64
So you join that
with the religious view
00:15:43.67\00:15:45.31
that has the same,
00:15:45.34\00:15:46.68
and it's very bad
for religious freedom.
00:15:46.71\00:15:48.18
We'll take a
break and we'll be back
00:15:48.21\00:15:50.58
to continue what I'm
sure you'll be finding
00:15:50.61\00:15:53.28
a captivating discussion
of Christian leadership.
00:15:53.31\00:15:56.25