Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI190432A
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00:26 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:28 This is the program bringing you liberty 00:32 in its purest sense and explanation of it 00:34 as well as a commentary on what's happening now. 00:37 My name is Lincoln Steed, Editor of Liberty Magazine, 00:41 and my guest on this program is Kingsley Palmer. 00:44 I know your name very well like that... 00:46 As you know I have prompting problems... 00:48 You're doing well. You're doing well. 00:50 But you and I've been really comparing notes 00:51 on not just this program, 00:53 few others that we've done at other times. 00:55 And on this program, I want to really get 00:58 to the nitty-gritty, religious liberty. 01:01 We talk about the symptoms usually in the negative, 01:04 something's gone wrong here, something's gone wrong there. 01:07 What is the basis for you 01:11 and for what we should all be doing 01:12 on religious liberty? 01:14 Where do you get your marching orders? 01:16 I get the marching orders from scripture. 01:19 And you know, I go back to Micah 6:8, 01:24 Isaiah 61:1, you know, 01:27 where the Lord makes it very plain 01:30 what the objective in reaching human beings 01:33 with the gospel looks like 01:37 in terms of hands, and feet, and engagement. 01:41 We don't offer a service, it's a ministry. 01:45 Now there is a service... 01:46 There is a service component to it, yes. 01:48 Defending mostly Adventist, 01:50 but really anybody that comes to you, 01:52 I think you would... Exactly. 01:53 If it was a religious accommodation issue 01:56 or something like that, 01:58 you would get a bat for them, wouldn't you? 01:59 Because... Well, of course. 02:00 It's not limited to any people, group, or organization, 02:04 or church, or whatever. 02:06 But I also... 02:07 We're defending conscience at root, aren't we? 02:08 Exactly. You're defending conscience. 02:11 A person cannot be in the context 02:13 that we work free religiously 02:17 to know the God that you want to introduce to them. 02:19 If they're incumbent, 02:20 if they don't eat, there's no food to eat, 02:23 if there's no one to stand up 02:24 and advocate for their basic human rights. 02:27 I look at the Ten Commandments in two ways. 02:30 Our relationship to God, 02:32 what He requires of us to make Him known, 02:35 and the application of that. 02:37 The first part of that is the first four commandments, 02:41 and the last six is our relationship 02:43 to other human beings in terms of the gospel 02:48 and our special message being applied. 02:50 Didn't Jesus repeat 02:51 what was in ancient Jewish summation? 02:54 Anyway, you know, love the Lord your God 02:56 with all your heart, with all your soul. 02:58 Right. 02:59 And so that wraps that up, 03:01 and if we know 03:02 that God loves us and created us, 03:04 we want to apply all of that to our fellows. 03:07 We have to, not want to. 03:08 Right. 03:09 You can't even claim to be an active child of God 03:14 or a responsive child of God unless you're doing that. 03:16 So religious liberty on one level 03:17 is putting that into action. 03:19 Right, it is. 03:20 Acknowledging their value and freeing their potential up. 03:25 And I believe that, why I call it ministry. 03:28 And again, 03:30 I'm coming from the perspective of a pastor. 03:33 And some are working within the church... 03:36 I work within the church, it is a ministry. 03:40 When I'm working in the community, 03:41 for example, I got a call the other day, 03:46 the attorney general for the state of Arizona 03:49 asked the religious leaders to come together 03:51 to deal with the opioid situation. 03:56 And we all came together, put our heads together 03:58 as to how can we get the church engaged in something 04:02 where we have a locked-in audience, 04:04 we have a locked-in group of people every weekend, 04:06 who are extension to this society 04:08 of the communities 04:10 that we reside in and we pastor in. 04:12 Where can we build these partnerships 04:15 to be able to attack something like that for information? 04:19 Now when we're able to do that, 04:21 we then opened the door for other opportunities 04:24 for the gospel to be preached. 04:26 Yes. 04:27 So on the one hand, yes, I am an employee 04:30 of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. 04:32 But as a pastor and a community leader, 04:35 I have to bring the two together 04:36 in terms of what I do in my local community, 04:39 how do I raise the profile of my church, 04:42 how do I get people out of the pews 04:44 to engage and build relationships. 04:48 What was the government's suggestions 04:49 and what the churches could do? 04:52 Well, one of the... 04:54 In the situation that I'm explaining, 04:56 you have people there, we will... 04:58 Let's come together. 04:59 We've developed a program 05:01 with the law enforcement, all the other health agencies, 05:04 and be educated on how you can recognize that, 05:08 right? 05:09 And how you can set your church up 05:12 as a place where... 05:13 Once you recognize that, 05:15 there are some things you can do in an emergency, 05:16 that's just one of many of the... 05:18 Now there's no question, 05:20 especially on the public affairs 05:21 split of our title. 05:24 You can work cooperatively with authorities 05:28 on, for one of the better term, issues of morality. 05:33 There is another side of it 05:35 that we've got to be careful of. 05:36 And I remember, after... 05:39 Which dome was it? 05:41 There's been a slew of them down 05:42 in the Gulf and down South lately, 05:45 but one of the emergency issue a few years ago, 05:50 there was a directive sent out to all the churches down South 05:55 that the pastor should keep an eye out, 05:57 they should pass on the instructions 05:59 for emergency operation, 06:01 and they should pass on to the authorities 06:04 those who were rejecting this advice. 06:08 So to me, that was shades 06:09 of the Soviet Union operation wave... 06:14 And in China today, 06:16 with the state will if you give them half a chance, 06:19 use the church as their eyes and ears 06:21 for general population control. 06:26 And separation of church and state, 06:27 as you well know, 06:29 doesn't mean that the church never deals with the state. 06:31 We have to, we live within the boundaries of it, 06:35 not to be its tool. 06:36 The state can use the church 06:38 and the church will use the church 06:39 in bad ways if you let it happen. 06:41 Right, and you have to be very smart 06:43 unless you are out there 06:45 understanding what the dynamics are. 06:46 There are some things 06:48 that are of benefit to the local community that... 06:52 Of course, you got to be test all the space, 06:54 you got to know what you are doing, 06:56 but you just can't go out blindly and say, 06:58 "Well, this is a good program, that isn't." 07:00 You got to be able to check out what the... 07:04 I do think the church has an obligation 07:06 even to be the conscience of society 07:09 and speak truth to power which is part of it. 07:12 Well, I'm glad, 'cause this is advocacy. 07:14 Yeah. When I go to... 07:16 When I write a letter for this type of accommodation, 07:20 I'm speaking to an authority, I'm speaking to power. 07:25 When I go to legislature with an issue 07:28 that affects everybody in my community, 07:30 I'm speaking to power. 07:32 I understand that. 07:33 We have Daniel, we have Esther, we have all these examples 07:37 right down to the New Testament. 07:39 Even Jesus did that Himself because He... 07:43 It's an absolute requirement, it's not an optional extra. 07:50 Is it James 4:17 says, 07:52 "Him that knows to do good and does it not, 07:55 in any area or aspect 07:58 where human life and human conscience 08:01 is contravened, and we do nothing 08:05 to them, that is evil." 08:07 And this is part and parcel... 08:09 Well, Ellen White writing to Adventists says, 08:11 we're not to sit calmly 08:13 in expectation of the coming crisis 08:15 thinking that God will shelter us, 08:16 we've got to be proactive... 08:18 Exactly. 08:19 In applying what we know on morality, end-time events, 08:22 the whole thing, on freedom issues. 08:24 And I think it was admirable in the United States 08:27 that Martin Luther King and many other ministers, 08:32 you know, led out boldly in proclaiming, 08:36 you know, God-given liberty 08:37 that turned into a civil liberty. 08:40 So yes, they were treading on political ground 08:43 but they were doing it from the point of... 08:45 It had a biblical foundation too. 08:47 Yes. 08:48 They weren't, you know, 08:50 setting up, sending not at any cooperation 08:53 with power or adding to civil power. 08:55 In fact, they agitated if anything. 08:58 So, you know, I'm comfortable with that. 08:59 Even though at the time, it was very contentious. 09:03 Well, let's remember too. 09:05 In the 1860s, with the civil war, the church, 09:10 the Seventh-day Adventist Church 09:12 with its prophetic message was very disturbed 09:15 about the slavery issue. 09:17 Now we all know it's documented, 09:19 the history of our pioneers, 09:21 Ellen White, and the suffrage, and the anti-slavery, 09:25 the setting up of Oakwood University 09:27 at a time when people of color like myself 09:30 were not allowed to be taught. 09:32 We're taught... 09:33 We were supposed to remain ignorant and untaught, 09:37 our church stepped up, 09:39 and yet it didn't diminish the power or the witness 09:42 of the prophetic message that we had. 09:45 And I really do believe this. 09:46 And sometimes when I move around 09:48 from churches to churches, people get their backs up. 09:51 "Oh, you're being too political." 09:54 The Bible is full of political inferences. 09:56 The way I put it. 09:57 You know, then, and people use that as an excuse. 09:58 And maybe I can easily help clarify 10:00 because I listen to a lot of political talk... 10:01 Go ahead. Yeah. 10:03 And many, many times, 10:04 I've heard senators and congressman 10:06 being interviewed on some, 10:07 the issue of the day and they say, 10:09 "I don't want to be political on this." 10:11 And I think there's a tautology of era, 10:14 they are a political instrument. 10:16 What they really mean 10:18 is, "I don't want to be partisan on this." 10:21 And that's what we're called to be non-partisan. 10:24 Yeah. 10:26 But in religious liberty, 10:27 how can you avoid not being political? 10:29 You can't. 10:31 You're absolutely dealing with a phase of public policy, 10:37 and you're dealing with public officials. 10:39 The whole thing is political but not in the bad sense 10:43 because what we are warned against is partisan. 10:46 Now writing to Seventh-day Adventists only, 10:50 Ellen White, our early pioneer, spoke on this 10:54 at least two occasions I know of, 10:55 and she said, "Any pastor or teacher 10:59 who's involved with partisan, party, politics 11:02 should resign or be fired." 11:04 You know what? 11:06 And I agree with that. I too do. 11:07 But that's partisan issues. That's partisan. 11:09 In other words, you can't be a party animal 11:11 pushing for republic and democrat 11:13 or even an independent party. 11:15 That's a political activity 11:16 that should have no place in the church 11:19 because it's to deal 11:21 with civil power and a civil agenda, 11:24 but if we're to be like Daniel, or Joseph, or whatever, 11:27 we need to speak not just truth 11:30 but we need to speak absolute truth 11:32 from God's Word straight to that. 11:34 That's a privilege. 11:35 That's our obligation on occasion. 11:37 But also what I've come up against 11:39 is this definition, this misapplication 11:43 of what a prophet should do. 11:46 We're happy with the foretelling, 11:49 but we're not happy with the tell forth. 11:53 And people will tell you, in a heartbeat, 11:56 you know, and we've had pushback 11:58 since we tried to balance 12:00 the service, the ministry as a component 12:03 that's effectively there to help the community 12:07 and to help how church understand. 12:09 Be happy that God has called you 12:11 to be able to touch someone in an area 12:14 that I might not have been able to touch or to reach someone, 12:17 but the whole objective is, 12:18 "Hey, we have a prophetic message." 12:20 We tell, we share that prophetic message 12:24 with the community, 12:25 while at the same time, being neutral 12:28 and not being partisan as you rightly said, 12:31 and speaking to power 12:33 such as we have these biblical examples, 12:36 and that for me is extremely important. 12:41 We are to speak prophetically as Adventists, particularly, 12:46 because our group and our pioneers 12:49 studied the Bible, 12:51 as all Christians and we hope all people 12:53 that have curiosity about spiritual things 12:55 read this Holy Book, 12:56 and this, there's outlines of the future, 13:00 you know, of human behavior, that's prophecy. 13:03 And where you see things told for our aids 13:07 that needs to be explicated to those people. 13:09 And I think that goes to the root, 13:11 that is what it is in the Bible prophecy. 13:13 Yes. 13:15 But the word to be a prophet, we've misunderstood it. 13:18 Exactly. 13:19 It's an explicator of truth. It is. 13:21 Anybody that does that is a prophet... 13:23 Yes. Who speak prophetically. 13:25 And it's a problem to those who... 13:27 And really, what we sometimes think 13:29 as a prophet where someone, 13:30 you know, is a mouthpiece for God, 13:33 which has happened in Bible times, particularly, 13:35 but I wouldn't limit it to that. 13:36 And Joel says 13:38 that this will happen at the end of the time. 13:39 Right. 13:41 That's where you're a mouthpiece of God, 13:42 but normally a prophet is someone 13:44 who's speaking on behalf of God 13:46 and explicating to other people in an understandable way, 13:50 these words once delivered to the saints. 13:53 Exactly. 13:55 And so we can speak prophetically. 13:58 And we can speak prophetically to those elements 14:02 who make the decisions that will impact what we do, 14:07 and even what we believe and what we chose to practice. 14:09 Yeah. 14:11 Yet at the same time, not lose the common touch, 14:14 that's what I call it. 14:16 Yeah. Because that is an exciting... 14:18 Or to lose our grounding in the faith. 14:20 You're right. 14:21 And I've often... 14:22 Well, we're getting close 14:24 to where we need to have a break. 14:25 Stay with us. 14:26 We'll be back after a short break 14:28 to continue this discussion. |
Revised 2019-04-25