Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the program
bringing you liberty
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in its purest sense
and explanation of it
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as well as a commentary
on what's happening now.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine,
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and my guest on this
program is Kingsley Palmer.
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I know your name
very well like that...
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As you know I have
prompting problems...
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You're doing
well. You're doing well.
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But you and I've been
really comparing notes
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on not just this program,
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few others that
we've done at other times.
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And on this
program, I want to really get
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to the
nitty-gritty, religious liberty.
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We talk about the symptoms
usually in the negative,
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something's gone wrong here,
something's gone wrong there.
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What is the basis for you
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and for what we
should all be doing
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on religious liberty?
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Where do you get
your marching orders?
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I get the marching
orders from scripture.
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And you know, I
go back to Micah 6:8,
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Isaiah 61:1, you know,
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where the Lord
makes it very plain
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what the objective
in reaching human beings
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with the gospel looks like
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in terms of hands,
and feet, and engagement.
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We don't offer a
service, it's a ministry.
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Now there is a service...
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There is a service
component to it, yes.
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Defending mostly Adventist,
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but really
anybody that comes to you,
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I think you would... Exactly.
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If it was a
religious accommodation issue
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or something like that,
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you would get a bat
for them, wouldn't you?
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Because... Well, of course.
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It's not limited to any
people, group, or organization,
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or church, or whatever.
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But I also...
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We're defending
conscience at root, aren't we?
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Exactly. You're
defending conscience.
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A person cannot
be in the context
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that we work free religiously
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to know the God that you
want to introduce to them.
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If they're incumbent,
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if they don't eat,
there's no food to eat,
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if there's no one to stand up
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and advocate for
their basic human rights.
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I look at the Ten
Commandments in two ways.
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Our relationship to God,
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what He requires of
us to make Him known,
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and the application of that.
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The first part of that is
the first four commandments,
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and the last six
is our relationship
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to other human beings
in terms of the gospel
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and our special
message being applied.
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Didn't Jesus repeat
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what was in
ancient Jewish summation?
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Anyway, you know,
love the Lord your God
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with all your
heart, with all your soul.
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Right.
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And so that wraps that up,
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and if we know
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that God loves
us and created us,
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we want to apply all
of that to our fellows.
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We have to, not want to.
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Right.
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You can't even claim to
be an active child of God
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or a responsive child of
God unless you're doing that.
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So religious
liberty on one level
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is putting that into action.
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Right, it is.
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Acknowledging their value
and freeing their potential up.
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And I believe that,
why I call it ministry.
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And again,
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I'm coming from the
perspective of a pastor.
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And some are
working within the church...
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I work within the
church, it is a ministry.
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When I'm working
in the community,
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for example, I got
a call the other day,
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the attorney general
for the state of Arizona
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asked the religious
leaders to come together
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to deal with the
opioid situation.
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And we all came
together, put our heads together
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as to how can we get the
church engaged in something
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where we have a
locked-in audience,
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we have a locked-in
group of people every weekend,
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who are
extension to this society
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of the communities
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that we reside
in and we pastor in.
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Where can we
build these partnerships
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to be able to attack something
like that for information?
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Now when we're able to do that,
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we then opened the
door for other opportunities
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for the gospel to be preached.
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Yes.
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So on the one hand,
yes, I am an employee
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of the
Seventh-day Adventist Church.
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But as a pastor
and a community leader,
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I have to bring the two together
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in terms of what I do
in my local community,
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how do I raise the
profile of my church,
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how do I get
people out of the pews
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to engage and
build relationships.
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What was the
government's suggestions
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and what the churches could do?
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Well, one of the...
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In the situation
that I'm explaining,
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you have people
there, we will...
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Let's come together.
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We've developed a program
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with the law enforcement,
all the other health agencies,
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and be educated on how
you can recognize that,
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right?
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And how you can
set your church up
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as a place where...
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Once you recognize that,
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there are some things
you can do in an emergency,
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that's just one
of many of the...
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Now there's no question,
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especially on the public affairs
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split of our title.
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You can work
cooperatively with authorities
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on, for one of the
better term, issues of morality.
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There is another side of it
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that we've got to be careful of.
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And I remember, after...
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Which dome was it?
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There's been a slew of them down
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in the Gulf and
down South lately,
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but one of the
emergency issue a few years ago,
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there was a directive sent out
to all the churches down South
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that the pastor
should keep an eye out,
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they should pass
on the instructions
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for emergency operation,
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and they should pass
on to the authorities
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those who were
rejecting this advice.
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So to me, that was shades
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of the Soviet
Union operation wave...
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And in China today,
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with the state will if
you give them half a chance,
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use the church as
their eyes and ears
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for general population control.
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And separation
of church and state,
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as you well know,
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doesn't mean that the church
never deals with the state.
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We have to, we live
within the boundaries of it,
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not to be its tool.
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The state can use the church
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and the church
will use the church
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in bad ways if
you let it happen.
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Right, and you
have to be very smart
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unless you are out there
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understanding
what the dynamics are.
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There are some things
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that are of benefit to
the local community that...
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Of course, you got to
be test all the space,
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you got to know
what you are doing,
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but you just can't
go out blindly and say,
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"Well, this is a
good program, that isn't."
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You got to be able
to check out what the...
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I do think the
church has an obligation
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even to be the
conscience of society
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and speak truth to
power which is part of it.
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Well, I'm glad,
'cause this is advocacy.
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Yeah. When I go to...
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When I write a letter for
this type of accommodation,
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I'm speaking to an authority,
I'm speaking to power.
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When I go to
legislature with an issue
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that affects
everybody in my community,
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I'm speaking to power.
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I understand that.
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We have Daniel, we have Esther,
we have all these examples
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right down to the New Testament.
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Even Jesus did that
Himself because He...
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It's an absolute requirement,
it's not an optional extra.
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Is it James 4:17 says,
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"Him that knows to
do good and does it not,
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in any area or aspect
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where human life
and human conscience
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is contravened,
and we do nothing
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to them, that is evil."
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And this is part and parcel...
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Well, Ellen White
writing to Adventists says,
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we're not to sit calmly
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in expectation
of the coming crisis
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thinking that
God will shelter us,
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we've got to be proactive...
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Exactly.
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In applying what we know
on morality, end-time events,
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the whole thing,
on freedom issues.
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And I think it was
admirable in the United States
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that Martin Luther King
and many other ministers,
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you know, led out
boldly in proclaiming,
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you know, God-given liberty
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that turned
into a civil liberty.
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So yes, they were
treading on political ground
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but they were doing
it from the point of...
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It had a
biblical foundation too.
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Yes.
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They weren't, you know,
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setting up, sending
not at any cooperation
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with power or
adding to civil power.
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In fact, they
agitated if anything.
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So, you know, I'm
comfortable with that.
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Even though at the
time, it was very contentious.
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Well, let's remember too.
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In the 1860s, with
the civil war, the church,
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the Seventh-day Adventist Church
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with its prophetic
message was very disturbed
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about the slavery issue.
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Now we all know it's documented,
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the history of our pioneers,
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Ellen White, and the
suffrage, and the anti-slavery,
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the setting up of
Oakwood University
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at a time when
people of color like myself
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were not allowed to be taught.
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We're taught...
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We were supposed to
remain ignorant and untaught,
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our church stepped up,
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and yet it didn't diminish
the power or the witness
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of the prophetic
message that we had.
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And I really do believe this.
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And sometimes when I move around
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from churches to churches,
people get their backs up.
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"Oh, you're
being too political."
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The Bible is full of
political inferences.
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The way I put it.
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You know, then, and
people use that as an excuse.
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And maybe I can
easily help clarify
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because I listen to a
lot of political talk...
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Go ahead. Yeah.
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And many, many times,
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I've heard
senators and congressman
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being interviewed on some,
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the issue of the
day and they say,
00:10:07.64\00:10:09.50
"I don't want to
be political on this."
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And I think
there's a tautology of era,
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they are a political instrument.
00:10:14.58\00:10:16.68
What they really mean
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is, "I don't want to
be partisan on this."
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And that's what we're
called to be non-partisan.
00:10:21.68\00:10:24.92
Yeah.
00:10:24.95\00:10:26.29
But in religious liberty,
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how can you avoid
not being political?
00:10:27.69\00:10:29.82
You can't.
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You're absolutely dealing
with a phase of public policy,
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and you're dealing
with public officials.
00:10:37.57\00:10:39.63
The whole thing is political
but not in the bad sense
00:10:39.67\00:10:43.34
because what we are
warned against is partisan.
00:10:43.37\00:10:46.07
Now writing to
Seventh-day Adventists only,
00:10:46.11\00:10:50.31
Ellen White, our
early pioneer, spoke on this
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at least two
occasions I know of,
00:10:54.12\00:10:55.45
and she said,
"Any pastor or teacher
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who's involved with
partisan, party, politics
00:10:59.25\00:11:02.72
should resign or be fired."
00:11:02.76\00:11:04.89
You know what?
00:11:04.93\00:11:06.26
And I agree with that. I too do.
00:11:06.29\00:11:07.83
But that's partisan
issues. That's partisan.
00:11:07.86\00:11:09.50
In other words, you
can't be a party animal
00:11:09.53\00:11:11.03
pushing for
republic and democrat
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or even an independent party.
00:11:13.27\00:11:15.27
That's a political activity
00:11:15.30\00:11:16.67
that should have
no place in the church
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because it's to deal
00:11:19.77\00:11:21.11
with civil power
and a civil agenda,
00:11:21.14\00:11:23.98
but if we're to be like
Daniel, or Joseph, or whatever,
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we need to speak not just truth
00:11:27.62\00:11:30.12
but we need to
speak absolute truth
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from God's Word
straight to that.
00:11:32.22\00:11:34.06
That's a privilege.
00:11:34.09\00:11:35.42
That's our
obligation on occasion.
00:11:35.46\00:11:37.39
But also what
I've come up against
00:11:37.43\00:11:39.59
is this
definition, this misapplication
00:11:39.63\00:11:43.87
of what a prophet should do.
00:11:43.90\00:11:46.70
We're happy
with the foretelling,
00:11:46.74\00:11:49.77
but we're not happy
with the tell forth.
00:11:49.80\00:11:53.17
And people will
tell you, in a heartbeat,
00:11:53.21\00:11:56.18
you know, and we've had pushback
00:11:56.21\00:11:58.81
since we tried to balance
00:11:58.85\00:12:00.45
the service, the
ministry as a component
00:12:00.48\00:12:03.72
that's effectively
there to help the community
00:12:03.75\00:12:07.39
and to help how
church understand.
00:12:07.42\00:12:09.42
Be happy that God has called you
00:12:09.46\00:12:11.66
to be able to
touch someone in an area
00:12:11.69\00:12:14.10
that I might not have been able
to touch or to reach someone,
00:12:14.13\00:12:17.13
but the whole objective is,
00:12:17.17\00:12:18.50
"Hey, we have a
prophetic message."
00:12:18.53\00:12:20.74
We tell, we share
that prophetic message
00:12:20.77\00:12:24.04
with the community,
00:12:24.07\00:12:25.47
while at the same
time, being neutral
00:12:25.51\00:12:28.94
and not being
partisan as you rightly said,
00:12:28.98\00:12:31.91
and speaking to power
00:12:31.95\00:12:33.78
such as we have
these biblical examples,
00:12:33.82\00:12:36.18
and that for me is
extremely important.
00:12:36.22\00:12:41.36
We are to speak prophetically
as Adventists, particularly,
00:12:41.39\00:12:46.46
because our
group and our pioneers
00:12:46.49\00:12:49.66
studied the Bible,
00:12:49.70\00:12:51.03
as all Christians
and we hope all people
00:12:51.07\00:12:53.50
that have curiosity
about spiritual things
00:12:53.54\00:12:55.20
read this Holy Book,
00:12:55.24\00:12:56.64
and this, there's
outlines of the future,
00:12:56.67\00:13:00.74
you know, of human
behavior, that's prophecy.
00:13:00.78\00:13:03.55
And where you see
things told for our aids
00:13:03.58\00:13:07.15
that needs to be
explicated to those people.
00:13:07.18\00:13:09.88
And I think that
goes to the root,
00:13:09.92\00:13:11.82
that is what it is
in the Bible prophecy.
00:13:11.85\00:13:13.86
Yes.
00:13:13.89\00:13:15.22
But the word to be a
prophet, we've misunderstood it.
00:13:15.26\00:13:18.19
Exactly.
00:13:18.23\00:13:19.56
It's an
explicator of truth. It is.
00:13:19.59\00:13:21.83
Anybody that does
that is a prophet...
00:13:21.86\00:13:23.90
Yes. Who speak prophetically.
00:13:23.93\00:13:25.30
And it's a
problem to those who...
00:13:25.33\00:13:27.50
And really, what
we sometimes think
00:13:27.54\00:13:29.14
as a prophet where someone,
00:13:29.17\00:13:30.51
you know, is a
mouthpiece for God,
00:13:30.54\00:13:32.97
which has happened in
Bible times, particularly,
00:13:33.01\00:13:35.28
but I wouldn't limit it to that.
00:13:35.31\00:13:36.78
And Joel says
00:13:36.81\00:13:38.15
that this will happen
at the end of the time.
00:13:38.18\00:13:39.51
Right.
00:13:39.55\00:13:41.05
That's where you're
a mouthpiece of God,
00:13:41.08\00:13:42.52
but normally a
prophet is someone
00:13:42.55\00:13:44.52
who's speaking on behalf of God
00:13:44.55\00:13:46.09
and explicating to other
people in an understandable way,
00:13:46.12\00:13:50.49
these words once
delivered to the saints.
00:13:50.53\00:13:53.83
Exactly.
00:13:53.86\00:13:55.20
And so we can
speak prophetically.
00:13:55.23\00:13:58.00
And we can speak
prophetically to those elements
00:13:58.03\00:14:02.94
who make the decisions
that will impact what we do,
00:14:02.97\00:14:07.21
and even what we believe
and what we chose to practice.
00:14:07.24\00:14:09.68
Yeah.
00:14:09.71\00:14:11.05
Yet at the same time,
not lose the common touch,
00:14:11.08\00:14:14.92
that's what I call it.
00:14:14.95\00:14:16.28
Yeah. Because
that is an exciting...
00:14:16.32\00:14:17.99
Or to lose our
grounding in the faith.
00:14:18.02\00:14:19.99
You're right.
00:14:20.02\00:14:21.36
And I've often...
00:14:21.39\00:14:22.72
Well, we're getting close
00:14:22.76\00:14:24.09
to where we
need to have a break.
00:14:24.13\00:14:25.46
Stay with us.
00:14:25.49\00:14:26.83
We'll be back
after a short break
00:14:26.86\00:14:28.20
to continue this discussion.
00:14:28.23\00:14:29.56