Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI190431B
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00:04 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:06 Before the break, with Kingsley, 00:08 we were getting to some nitty-gritty issues 00:11 on religious liberty. 00:13 And let's just pause for a minute on the one 00:15 that in the United States and Canada that is really, 00:18 and Australia, and in England for that matter but... 00:23 it's a big issue on how Christians relate 00:26 to the new found gay and transgender rights. 00:31 And it's more of mobbing put forward 00:33 by people on both sides 00:36 that it's sort of a choice that you either have gay rights 00:39 or religious rights and, 00:41 you know, the gay community, 00:43 some of the radical ones would like to take away 00:45 the right of people of faith 00:47 to even have a view point on this, 00:50 a negative view point. 00:51 And similarly, Christians would like to restrict 00:55 the right of gays 00:56 and it comes to ahead in the famous cake case 00:59 where this baker... 01:02 We'll never quite know how he said it, 01:04 but a gay couple came, and I'm sure it was a set up 01:08 because in reality, 01:10 cake making, and wedding photography, 01:13 and things like that, 01:14 you go where there's some party go, right? 01:18 It's more than just a business transaction, 01:20 you want someone that is on, the fellow traveler, 01:23 and, you know, it's a feel good relationship. 01:25 So this gay couple came, 01:27 and asked this Christian cake maker 01:28 to make them a wedding cake. 01:30 Yes. 01:31 And no, no, thank you. 01:33 And the Supreme Court in the US upheld his right, 01:37 but they did it mostly 01:39 because the gay community maligned him a lot. 01:43 And, of course, it's not good to have someone maligned 01:45 for their faith. 01:46 So I don't think we're seeing the end of this, 01:49 but how do you see that dynamically? 01:51 You know, if you were running a cake shop, 01:53 what would you do? 01:54 Well, I can do one better than that. 01:56 I'm a minister of the gospel. 01:58 Well, let's just say you're a minister 01:59 running a cake shop. 02:02 No... 02:05 The mixing of morality, 02:07 the question of morality on what we believe, that's a... 02:11 While it is personal on a certain level, 02:15 but within the religious community, 02:17 regardless to what's your faith disposition is, 02:20 and there are those other religious organizations 02:25 that viewed it a little differently. 02:30 We are now are giving or wrestling with the idea 02:35 of where do we draw the line 02:37 with respect to what we believe, 02:38 and what we teach, and what we practice. 02:43 We need to draw the line between the desire of someone 02:46 whether their lifestyle has been chosen or whatever. 02:50 How far can we go without having to compromise 02:54 on what we believe? 02:56 Everyone has the right to choose to do 02:59 or believe what they want to. 03:01 And this is getting messy so much 03:03 so that some of my colleagues 03:05 and I choose them not to perform a certain... 03:11 That they will not perform weddings 03:13 or civil weddings as it were, 03:17 and they only keep it to the church. 03:20 Well, as a pastor, I think, that's a little bit different. 03:24 If you're a minister of religion, 03:26 but if certain type of a religion that, 03:30 you know, the subset of Christianity 03:31 is the Seventh-day Adventist. 03:33 I don't see any obligation, 03:35 and necessity or whether be a requirement for you 03:39 to perform a marriage 03:42 that's outside of the spiritual guidelines 03:44 that you adhere to. 03:46 You are a facilitator for that faith, 03:50 not of anything because the Bible does... 03:55 The Old Testament condemn 03:57 that is to facilitate witchcraft, 03:59 for example. 04:00 And I think you'd be in the same, 04:02 but that's administrating religious rights. 04:06 And even the state clearly recognizes 04:08 within the church structure, they put it as exemptions, 04:14 but out in the civil sphere, 04:15 even if you happen to be a minister, 04:17 you're running a cake shop. 04:19 I'll get you to hypothesize on this yet. 04:24 You make cakes, even wedding cakes, 04:26 and this couple comes jauntily through the door 04:32 and you're sort of taken aback 04:33 because this is not a behavior or arrangement 04:37 that is consistent with the old biblical view. 04:40 What would you do when they come, 04:43 money in the hand, yeah, 04:45 we want you to make our wedding cake. 04:48 Well, haven't come across that yet, 04:50 but since you asked the question, 04:55 I have to be true to who I am and what I believe, 04:59 and hopefully, 05:01 in explaining to them why I cannot do this 05:04 for whatever religions they were done... 05:05 For whatever reasons, they would understand that. 05:08 There's a way in which you can communicate that. 05:11 Yeah, that's exactly what I believe. 05:13 Yes. 05:14 But there's a bit more to than that. 05:15 What if, after you communicated 05:17 they still want you to do the cake? 05:20 You'd have to refuse, 05:21 probably, have to refuse it because you... 05:24 Why would you refuse to make a cake 05:26 for a murderer, say? 05:32 Well, a murderer wanting the cake made 05:36 because you asked me the question about... 05:38 Or a wife beater... 05:41 A wife beater. 05:44 Or a child abuser. 05:45 Yeah, they're all moral infract, 05:47 they all have a moral component to that, right? 05:51 I wouldn't... 05:52 That you'd have to deal with as each person comes. 05:56 In reality, you don't know that there's such people. 05:58 Well, if you don't know that's not... 05:59 If you're running a cake shop, 06:02 you got to presume that 06:03 a reasonable number of the people 06:05 coming in the door are guilty of some infraction, 06:08 moral or legal or maybe all of the above, 06:12 the worst you can imagine. 06:13 But, you see, you cannot judge, 06:15 you cannot judge motives by the people. 06:18 Just as anyone can come to a church on any week, 06:22 and any day of the week, Saturday or Sunday. 06:25 You can't judge them just by how they look 06:27 or what they say, you judge them by what they... 06:30 How they behave, unless you find out. 06:33 So 'cause you're not accountable 06:34 for what you don't know. 06:35 But I think, you and I are in agreement 06:37 with what you said early. 06:38 It seems to me that if some... 06:41 First of all, in the real world, 06:43 they're not much going to come. 06:45 This was clearly a test case from a gay couple 06:48 representing an organization 06:51 wanting to flush out Christian bigotry and they... 06:54 I'm not saying it necessarily was, 06:56 but if they came. 07:01 It seems like the cake maker would, 07:03 they would... 07:05 Maybe by their behavior or something, 07:07 it would be sort of self-evident. 07:09 Well, two males I guess are self evident, gay couple. 07:12 It seemed to me very reasonable, legal, 07:15 and moral for such a cake maker to say, 07:19 "Thank you for choosing my business. 07:23 You may not be aware of it, I'm a Christian," 07:26 or you could identify yourself further, 07:29 you know, "in my reading of the Bible, 07:32 you know, 07:33 your lifestyle is something that really is not recommended, 07:37 and, you know, I have views on that, 07:39 and you should be aware of this, 07:41 and well, I thank you for choosing my business. 07:44 I may not be the best choice 07:46 to really do the full justice to this cake 07:48 that you would, perhaps expect. 07:50 But if you still want me to do it, 07:52 I will do what I can." 07:55 'Cause the argument is, 07:56 you can't put yourself creatively into it, 07:58 which you couldn't. 08:00 But then there sounds like an element of a compromise. 08:04 Well, that's the same compromise as Jesus. 08:06 I can't see that Jesus was drunkard 08:09 and a glutton or whatever, 08:11 but He associated freely with such people, right? 08:15 But it seems to me 08:17 that sort of thing lays at the opposition, 08:19 lays out a reference to them 08:23 that they're not in accordance with your moral view. 08:26 You're not going to be part of what they're doing, 08:30 but it's just a minimal effort, 08:32 you know, which is mechanical and not creative 08:35 for you're putting yourself fully into it. 08:36 You'll do what you can, 08:38 but it's not really part of their procedure, 08:42 and I think, in reality, if with such an explanation, 08:45 why would they continue? 08:47 They're going to go elsewhere, 08:48 but you've not said anything offensive nor illegal. 08:53 I don't think with that sort of a response 08:55 you could be accused of deep prejudice 08:59 or not wanting to deal with them or whatever. 09:01 Well, you see, each case is different. 09:03 They could very well say, "Well, you're discriminating." 09:06 You have this service to the public. 09:09 You're discriminating against us 09:10 because of what you might think or what you believe. 09:14 And here in lies that grey area is to how far do you go? 09:19 And ultimately, it comes down to conscience. 09:22 My real point is, I think, 09:24 there is a charitable way for Christians 09:27 to deal with those that are out of harmony 09:30 with what we believe. 09:32 By definition, we're outreaching all the time 09:34 and dealing with non-believers. 09:37 But we shouldn't encourage this compromise, 09:39 so this conflict rather, which is being set up, 09:42 I think, somewhat falsely. 09:44 Why should Christians be the enemy of the non-believer? 09:48 We're there to reconcile them to God. 09:50 Yeah, exactly. 09:51 But we've made a rot in many instances 09:53 by not representing well. 09:56 Yes. 09:57 And that's really where I'm coming. 09:59 Okay, so what we have to do in the public arena, 10:03 they say, 10:04 "Make a friend before you need a friend." 10:07 And you're looking out for the interest 10:10 of that individual, 10:11 and then let's find the common ground 10:13 where we can have a mutual relationship. 10:15 That's sort of what I am saying. 10:16 Okay, so... 10:18 And we need to diffuse this a little 10:19 because it's not in anyone's interest 10:21 to step up this great enmity 10:23 between Christian interests and civil interests. 10:25 Yes, and I honestly believe that 10:28 this is the sweet thing about 10:31 public views on religious liberty. 10:33 Making connections, being sensitive, being open, 10:38 and treating everyone as nicely and fairly as you possibly can 10:42 in the process of trying to offer a service 10:45 and to be open-minded, and that's what we do. 10:50 Jesus was asked many trick questions 10:53 by those trying to have Him stumble 10:57 on the realities of the day. 10:59 He was asked, for example, "This tower that fell," 11:01 you know, with those, I think it was 17. 11:04 Well, they're more wicked than anyone else. 11:06 And Jesus said, "Of course, not." 11:08 And with religious liberty, 11:09 we're dealing with really modern day issues, 11:12 not always obviously religious, 11:15 sometimes people of faith 11:17 put up against different moral choices 11:20 as the case with the baker. 11:22 But as always, 11:23 we need to apply the principle of freedom in Christ, 11:27 a full human potential brought to bear 11:30 on all the complicating issues of modern life, 11:33 most of which 11:34 when it's boiled down to the final point 11:38 really devolve around 11:39 how do we represent our Lord and our Creator, 11:43 and apply "Morality to present day situations." 11:49 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2019-04-19