Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
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Before the break, with Kingsley,
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we were getting to
some nitty-gritty issues
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on religious liberty.
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And let's just pause
for a minute on the one
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that in the United States
and Canada that is really,
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and Australia, and in
England for that matter but...
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it's a big issue on
how Christians relate
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to the new found gay
and transgender rights.
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And it's more of
mobbing put forward
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by people on both sides
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that it's sort of a choice
that you either have gay rights
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or religious rights and,
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you know, the gay community,
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some of the radical
ones would like to take away
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the right of people of faith
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to even have a
view point on this,
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a negative view point.
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And similarly, Christians
would like to restrict
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the right of gays
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and it comes to ahead
in the famous cake case
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where this baker...
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We'll never quite
know how he said it,
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but a gay couple came,
and I'm sure it was a set up
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because in reality,
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cake making, and
wedding photography,
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and things like that,
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you go where there's
some party go, right?
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It's more than just
a business transaction,
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you want someone that
is on, the fellow traveler,
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and, you know, it's a
feel good relationship.
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So this gay couple came,
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and asked this
Christian cake maker
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to make them a wedding cake.
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Yes.
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And no, no, thank you.
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And the Supreme Court
in the US upheld his right,
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but they did it mostly
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because the gay
community maligned him a lot.
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And, of course, it's not
good to have someone maligned
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for their faith.
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So I don't think we're
seeing the end of this,
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but how do you
see that dynamically?
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You know, if you
were running a cake shop,
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what would you do?
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Well, I can do
one better than that.
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I'm a minister of the gospel.
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Well, let's just
say you're a minister
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running a cake shop.
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No...
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The mixing of morality,
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the question of morality on
what we believe, that's a...
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While it is
personal on a certain level,
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but within the
religious community,
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regardless to what's
your faith disposition is,
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and there are those
other religious organizations
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that viewed it a
little differently.
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We are now are giving
or wrestling with the idea
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of where do we draw the line
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with respect to what we believe,
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and what we teach,
and what we practice.
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We need to draw the line
between the desire of someone
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whether their lifestyle
has been chosen or whatever.
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How far can we go
without having to compromise
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on what we believe?
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Everyone has the
right to choose to do
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or believe what they want to.
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And this is
getting messy so much
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so that some of my colleagues
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and I choose them not
to perform a certain...
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That they will
not perform weddings
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or civil weddings as it were,
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and they only
keep it to the church.
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Well, as a pastor, I think,
that's a little bit different.
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If you're a
minister of religion,
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but if certain
type of a religion that,
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you know, the
subset of Christianity
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is the Seventh-day Adventist.
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I don't see any obligation,
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and necessity or
whether be a requirement for you
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to perform a marriage
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that's outside of
the spiritual guidelines
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that you adhere to.
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You are a
facilitator for that faith,
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not of anything
because the Bible does...
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The Old Testament condemn
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that is to
facilitate witchcraft,
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for example.
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And I think
you'd be in the same,
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but that's
administrating religious rights.
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And even the
state clearly recognizes
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within the church structure,
they put it as exemptions,
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but out in the civil sphere,
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even if you
happen to be a minister,
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you're running a cake shop.
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I'll get you to
hypothesize on this yet.
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You make cakes,
even wedding cakes,
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and this couple comes
jauntily through the door
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and you're sort of taken aback
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because this is not a
behavior or arrangement
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that is consistent
with the old biblical view.
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What would you
do when they come,
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money in the hand, yeah,
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we want you to
make our wedding cake.
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Well, haven't
come across that yet,
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but since you
asked the question,
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I have to be true to
who I am and what I believe,
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and hopefully,
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in explaining to
them why I cannot do this
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for whatever
religions they were done...
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For whatever reasons,
they would understand that.
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There's a way in which
you can communicate that.
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Yeah, that's
exactly what I believe.
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Yes.
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But there's a bit
more to than that.
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What if, after you communicated
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they still want
you to do the cake?
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You'd have to refuse,
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probably, have to
refuse it because you...
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Why would you
refuse to make a cake
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for a murderer, say?
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Well, a murderer
wanting the cake made
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because you asked me
the question about...
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Or a wife beater...
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A wife beater.
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Or a child abuser.
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Yeah, they're all moral infract,
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they all have a moral
component to that, right?
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I wouldn't...
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That you'd have to deal
with as each person comes.
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In reality, you don't
know that there's such people.
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Well, if you
don't know that's not...
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If you're running a cake shop,
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you got to presume that
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a reasonable
number of the people
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coming in the door are
guilty of some infraction,
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moral or legal or
maybe all of the above,
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the worst you can imagine.
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But, you see, you cannot judge,
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you cannot judge
motives by the people.
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Just as anyone can come
to a church on any week,
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and any day of the
week, Saturday or Sunday.
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You can't judge them
just by how they look
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or what they say, you
judge them by what they...
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How they behave,
unless you find out.
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So 'cause you're not accountable
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for what you don't know.
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But I think, you
and I are in agreement
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with what you said early.
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It seems to me that if some...
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First of all, in the real world,
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they're not much going to come.
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This was clearly a
test case from a gay couple
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representing an organization
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wanting to flush out
Christian bigotry and they...
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I'm not saying
it necessarily was,
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but if they came.
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It seems like
the cake maker would,
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they would...
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Maybe by their
behavior or something,
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it would be
sort of self-evident.
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Well, two males I guess
are self evident, gay couple.
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It seemed to me
very reasonable, legal,
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and moral for such
a cake maker to say,
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"Thank you for
choosing my business.
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You may not be aware
of it, I'm a Christian,"
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or you could
identify yourself further,
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you know, "in my
reading of the Bible,
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you know,
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your lifestyle is something
that really is not recommended,
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and, you know, I
have views on that,
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and you should be aware of this,
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and well, I thank you
for choosing my business.
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I may not be the best choice
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to really do the
full justice to this cake
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that you would, perhaps expect.
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But if you still
want me to do it,
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I will do what I can."
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'Cause the argument is,
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you can't put
yourself creatively into it,
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which you couldn't.
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But then there sounds like
an element of a compromise.
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Well, that's the
same compromise as Jesus.
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I can't see that
Jesus was drunkard
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and a glutton or whatever,
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but He associated
freely with such people, right?
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But it seems to me
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that sort of thing
lays at the opposition,
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lays out a reference to them
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that they're not in
accordance with your moral view.
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You're not going to be
part of what they're doing,
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but it's just a minimal effort,
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you know, which is
mechanical and not creative
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for you're putting
yourself fully into it.
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You'll do what you can,
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but it's not really
part of their procedure,
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and I think, in reality,
if with such an explanation,
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why would they continue?
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They're going to go elsewhere,
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but you've not said
anything offensive nor illegal.
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I don't think with
that sort of a response
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you could be
accused of deep prejudice
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or not wanting to
deal with them or whatever.
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Well, you see,
each case is different.
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They could very well say,
"Well, you're discriminating."
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You have this
service to the public.
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You're discriminating against us
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because of what you might
think or what you believe.
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And here in lies that grey
area is to how far do you go?
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And ultimately, it
comes down to conscience.
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My real point is, I think,
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there is a
charitable way for Christians
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to deal with those
that are out of harmony
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with what we believe.
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By definition, we're
outreaching all the time
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and dealing with non-believers.
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But we shouldn't
encourage this compromise,
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so this conflict
rather, which is being set up,
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I think, somewhat falsely.
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Why should Christians be
the enemy of the non-believer?
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We're there to
reconcile them to God.
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Yeah, exactly.
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But we've made a
rot in many instances
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by not representing well.
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Yes.
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And that's
really where I'm coming.
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Okay, so what we have
to do in the public arena,
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they say,
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"Make a friend
before you need a friend."
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And you're looking
out for the interest
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of that individual,
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and then let's
find the common ground
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where we can have a
mutual relationship.
00:10:13.94\00:10:15.54
That's sort of what I am saying.
00:10:15.58\00:10:16.91
Okay, so...
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And we need to
diffuse this a little
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because it's not
in anyone's interest
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to step up this great enmity
00:10:21.05\00:10:23.28
between Christian
interests and civil interests.
00:10:23.32\00:10:25.65
Yes, and I honestly believe that
00:10:25.69\00:10:28.86
this is the sweet thing about
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public views on
religious liberty.
00:10:31.16\00:10:33.73
Making connections,
being sensitive, being open,
00:10:33.76\00:10:38.03
and treating everyone as nicely
and fairly as you possibly can
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in the process of
trying to offer a service
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and to be open-minded,
and that's what we do.
00:10:45.77\00:10:50.05
Jesus was asked
many trick questions
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by those trying
to have Him stumble
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on the realities of the day.
00:10:57.32\00:10:59.29
He was asked, for
example, "This tower that fell,"
00:10:59.32\00:11:01.86
you know, with
those, I think it was 17.
00:11:01.89\00:11:03.99
Well, they're more
wicked than anyone else.
00:11:04.03\00:11:05.99
And Jesus said,
"Of course, not."
00:11:06.03\00:11:08.03
And with religious liberty,
00:11:08.06\00:11:09.60
we're dealing with
really modern day issues,
00:11:09.63\00:11:12.90
not always obviously religious,
00:11:12.93\00:11:15.37
sometimes people of faith
00:11:15.40\00:11:17.01
put up against
different moral choices
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as the case with the baker.
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But as always,
00:11:22.58\00:11:23.91
we need to apply the
principle of freedom in Christ,
00:11:23.95\00:11:27.55
a full human
potential brought to bear
00:11:27.58\00:11:30.19
on all the complicating
issues of modern life,
00:11:30.22\00:11:33.52
most of which
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when it's boiled
down to the final point
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really devolve around
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how do we represent
our Lord and our Creator,
00:11:39.56\00:11:43.23
and apply "Morality to
present day situations."
00:11:43.26\00:11:49.07
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:11:49.10\00:11:52.14