Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI190431A
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00:26 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:28 This is the program designed 00:29 to make you fully aware of religious liberty developments 00:34 in the US and around the world. 00:36 We want you to be able to analyze 00:38 and describe in detail the real meaning of things 00:42 that are happening for religious liberty. 00:44 My name is Lincoln Steed, Editor of Liberty magazine. 00:47 And my guest on the program today... 00:51 I'm laughing because I had trouble remembering 00:53 your name earlier, Kingsley Palmer. 00:56 Actually, you're a very good friend, 00:57 we've had many good contacts, 00:59 but your name I've never linked in fully. 01:04 Kingsley, you're a director of religious liberty work 01:08 for the Seventh-day Adventist Church in Arizona. 01:12 And I want to pick your brains a little bit 01:14 on this particular program. 01:17 I advertise this is about, 01:19 you know, the nitty-gritty of religious liberty, 01:20 sometimes we deal with more philosophical stuff. 01:24 But, you know, right today in your area, particularly, 01:27 what do you see 01:29 as some of the particular challenges facing those 01:33 that are defending religious liberty? 01:37 If we take it 01:38 from the standpoint of public affairs, 01:41 and religious liberty, 01:42 religious liberty with regards to Sabbath accommodations, 01:45 we live... 01:47 Arizona is a right to work state. 01:49 And we've come across some cases where the violations, 01:55 the Sabbath accommodations have not been met 01:59 even by some Christian institutions 02:03 that do not subscribe to the theology, 02:05 the theological position we take on this 02:07 sanctity of the Sabbath. 02:08 Explain this right to work 02:10 because not everybody viewing is in the United States. 02:13 Right. 02:14 The right to work simply means that 02:17 an employer can dismiss you practically for any reason 02:23 and be validated and justified in doing so. 02:26 Well, they don't need a reason. 02:28 In fact, they don't need a reason, 02:29 they can just dismiss you right out of hand. 02:31 And there's very little that you can do about it 02:34 until unless it is contested, 02:37 particularly as far as the employment... 02:41 And the average person can't easily contest, 02:43 at least not legally. 02:45 No, unless 02:46 the only time we've been able to counteract that 02:50 is if the dismissal was based on either some kind of 02:56 violation of civil rights, human rights, 02:59 or even religion 03:02 because that is a federal law, 03:04 the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission 03:07 clearly states you cannot discriminate. 03:10 And I can think of one case if I can share that with you... 03:12 Absolutely. 03:14 You can share it with all of these good people. 03:16 Yes. But tell me. 03:18 Yes, about a year ago, 03:22 a young lady, she's Seventh-day Adventist, 03:26 and she had signed on two or three years ago 03:30 to take a course to become a nursing practitioner. 03:34 She paid her money, 03:36 there was a curriculum designed for her 03:38 to follow until she graduated. 03:41 And then last year, 03:42 which would have been her final year, 03:46 the university wanted her to take exams on Sabbath. 03:51 And she said she couldn't do so. 03:53 Saturday? Saturday. 03:55 And she said she couldn't do so for religious convictions. 03:58 And this university decided, 04:01 "Well, we've changed the program, 04:02 there are other people who can do that, 04:05 what makes you the exception?" 04:07 where she said that was her conviction, 04:09 that was her beliefs, and so on and so forth. 04:12 And they did not want to change the course. 04:13 Well, of course, then she came to us. 04:16 And we've researched and discovered that 04:20 in the days that they claimed on their website, 04:25 we do not discriminate on the basis of race, 04:28 ethnicity, gender, etcetera, etcetera or religion. 04:31 And so they were not willing to 04:35 make any concessions with respect to that, 04:37 even though she provided means and was ready to pay 04:41 for those exams to be taken on another day. 04:44 Long story short, 04:47 of course, we brought our legal people in. 04:50 And then 04:52 they decided to resolve the conflict, the problem, 04:56 but that was only after she was able to transfer her 04:59 credits to another university. 05:01 And it was after the fact... 05:03 They felt that was harming them. 05:04 Well, it was because this is their enemy. 05:06 So that was one situation. 05:08 And she was an immigrant, 05:10 legally here in the United States, 05:12 but then they were punishing her 05:15 because they didn't want to make accommodation. 05:16 I'm personally not keen on these right to work state 05:20 setups. 05:23 And I think many people would find it shocking 05:25 if they knew about it or thought about it much. 05:28 You know, I'm originally from Australia. 05:30 You were in England, 05:31 where the unions are quite strong. 05:33 Well, used to be. 05:35 Well, they're still very strong in Australia. 05:38 And Seventh-day Adventists, we have been brought up 05:44 with certain Skepticism on the unions, 05:47 and there's intimation with Sunday laws 05:53 on a national scale in the United States, 05:54 the union could well be, you know, 05:57 a real impediment to standing for your Sabbath conviction. 06:00 But that said, I really think by and large, 06:04 unions have been a plus 06:07 for the rights of the individual 06:08 in the workplace. 06:10 And I see the US is having a huge vulnerability 06:13 with these right to work states, 06:14 it treats the average worker as a disposable... 06:18 Commodity. Commodity, and it's not right. 06:22 And as you explained, it is clearly at odds 06:24 with the claims of the Constitution. 06:27 But I worked in several states, 06:29 and even I've had church officials 06:32 say this sort of with some glee, 06:34 "Well, we don't need a reason." 06:36 That's very unfocused. 06:37 Yeah, I've heard it in circles, 06:39 where that has actually been done 06:41 when we have dismissed people. 06:44 But it is what it is. 06:47 The best thing to say in that 06:48 we shouldn't descend to the level of the world, 06:51 in this case, 06:53 below the claims of the state itself, 06:55 but we should live on a higher level. 06:57 I said that this is a good story 06:59 where this institution had to see that 07:01 they were following the law originally 07:03 but not the Spirit of the Lord, not the intent of the Lord 07:06 to protect individual religious rights in this case. 07:11 And as you know and I know, 07:13 many Seventh-day Adventist cases are like this 07:16 for accommodation, 07:17 either in the workplace or for taking exams 07:20 or whatever on the Sabbath commitment. 07:22 And there might be some cases where it's not easily possible. 07:26 But by and large, 07:27 these are simple accommodations, 07:29 sometimes vacation time, 07:31 and instead of the Sabbath that they want, 07:35 or swapping shifts with someone, 07:37 or colleges and universities, they can reschedule, 07:42 especially I know there's been some cases 07:44 where it's not just been one Adventist, 07:46 it's been several that wanted to take it on alternate day, 07:50 not that hard, but... 07:51 And the other thing I'm finding too sometimes 07:54 what is written as part in their policy publications 07:58 that we do not does not get filtered down 08:02 to the immediate supervisor. 08:04 So they're bringing on people who are not familiar 08:06 with the company's position 08:09 on EEOC policy, 08:13 and that does create... 08:15 And that's a very good point though 08:16 because what you're getting at, 08:18 and I know this from dealing with religious liberty, 08:20 with a lot of employers and in situations 08:24 where someone's apparently having Sabbath problems, 08:27 it's often as simple as just having the pastor 08:32 or religious liberty 08:34 director relay the legal situation to the body, 08:38 they may not really know 08:40 that the worker is entitled to do some... 08:42 Yeah, there's some education. Accommodation. 08:44 Yeah, there was definitely some education. 08:45 It's not always that they're just did set 08:47 against granting something to someone, 08:49 it's often essentially ignorance to use a hard word. 08:53 Yes. But it's not willful ignorance. 08:55 It's, you know, they've never been told. 08:59 Yeah. 09:00 Well, we deal with, you know, each situation differently, 09:03 according to what the challenges are. 09:06 So yes, it is a right to work. 09:08 We also have a lot of refugees 09:11 who are fleeing their countries, 09:13 not just for political reasons but for religious reasons, too. 09:16 Yeah. 09:17 And we don't discriminate at least while you're Muslim, 09:21 or you're from this faith group or what have you, 09:24 it's the fundamental human right for you to choose 09:26 to believe in what you want to believe in. 09:31 And at least as it's running the US to have accommodation, 09:35 it's not necessary to prove that you have a faith 09:38 that requires that of the, you know, an organization. 09:41 It's that you're under personal conviction. 09:43 It's a conscience question, is it? 09:44 It is. It is. 09:47 And that makes it a lot easier, then you don't have to decide, 09:50 "Well, is this a religion or an angle 09:53 that that's worthy of consideration?" 09:55 No, whatever they're convicted on should be honored. 09:58 Right. 10:00 So in your area, in Arizona, 10:03 you're getting a lot of refugees? 10:05 Where would they come from? 10:07 I mean, how would they get to Arizona, 10:08 you're sort of in the middle somewhat? 10:10 We're a border state, some of them have... 10:13 Yeah, but you told me privately they were not people 10:16 from Mexico. 10:18 No, they're not, 10:20 although we do have a very large Hispanic content. 10:24 We've had refugees that have been able to come 10:27 in under political asylum among other things, 10:30 and migrate their way to places where they are... 10:33 My point is that you would not be the first stop in the US. 10:37 No, but when they end up, 10:39 then they come and they they're looking for work or, 10:42 you know, 10:43 they have some kind of religious conviction 10:46 on something and that they need that accommodation, 10:51 they find my office, 10:52 and we do what we can to help them. 10:54 Yeah, and there's no question. 10:56 You know, I'm glad you're bringing this up 10:57 because as operated day to day, 11:01 our religious liberty department 11:03 performs a wonderfully helpful service 11:06 to our community 11:08 because there's people, 11:09 religious conviction is just one, 11:11 but it's sort of bleeds over into, as you say, 11:13 general refugee status, general persecution, 11:16 and we're able to facilitate 11:19 these real issues within society. 11:21 So it's smoothing out a very difficult... 11:24 Well, here's another thing too. 11:28 When people become displaced 11:30 and they're living in a community, 11:31 and more often than not, sadly, 11:34 those can be probably not the best places for them. 11:37 So you have more than just the religious liberty component 11:41 to deal with the issues. 11:43 It's finding them reconnecting back to Seventh-day Adventism 11:48 or whatever groupings that they belong to 11:52 which requires a certain amount of... 11:55 It's hard work, it's tedious, but it's rewarding. 11:59 When I talk about public being in the public, 12:02 understanding what those needs are, 12:04 even above and beyond, 12:06 they might not even be a religious liberty situation, 12:08 but it's part and parcel of some other challenges, 12:11 the language and all those other things, so it is broad. 12:15 Yeah. But rewarding. 12:17 Okay. 12:18 Now another area, what else are you dealing with? 12:20 Is this... 12:22 You know, the classic religious liberty challenge 12:26 in the United States, 12:27 if you read the media only, 12:29 you'll believe it's between religious sensibility 12:32 and the newfound rights of the gay 12:34 and transgender and lesbian community. 12:39 Is that pretty much of a challenge in your area? 12:43 Not at this moment and time. 12:47 And I think what I do here is, 12:50 they kind of point back to the fact that 12:53 the civil rights movement, if I may bring that up, 12:58 laid the foundation for other rights, civil rights, 13:03 which are not necessarily in harmony 13:05 with the biblical reasons why that got started. 13:09 But it has certainly helped launch 13:13 that that particular group... 13:15 That's a bigger question, but... 13:16 It's a bigger question, but... 13:18 I almost let that run, 13:19 but I was never very comfortable 13:20 with the easy equating 13:22 of the civil rights movement itself, 13:25 that was trying to undo the whole 13:29 abuse of history of a whole people, 13:32 and now to easily equate that with 13:35 what are often lifestyle choices... 13:37 Right. 13:38 Lifestyle choices, 13:40 which are not based on any particular 13:41 moral obligation 13:43 and has distorted it to some degree, 13:47 but it is also used, you know, as a means, well, you know... 13:50 Yes, it has been. 13:52 And we've seen cases of, you know, 13:54 the companies or organizations 13:58 that don't want to serve certain individuals 14:01 because of what they're asking for... 14:03 Yes, we need to talk about that... 14:04 That's the part of it that bothers me. 14:08 And also I'm troubled 14:09 because I don't think it's a good dynamic that many... 14:12 even Christian groups are sort of encouraging 14:14 the idea that it's either their rights or ours, 14:18 their religious rights. 14:19 It's an either or, 14:21 it's not gonna turn out well if we leave it on that level. 14:23 We'll take a short break now 14:25 and be back to continue this discussion 14:27 that's now on to a very topical aspect 14:30 of civil and religious liberties. |
Revised 2019-04-19