Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the program designed
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to make you fully aware of
religious liberty developments
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in the US and around the world.
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We want you to
be able to analyze
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and describe in detail
the real meaning of things
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that are happening
for religious liberty.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty magazine.
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And my guest on
the program today...
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I'm laughing because I
had trouble remembering
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your name
earlier, Kingsley Palmer.
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Actually, you're
a very good friend,
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we've had many good contacts,
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but your name I've
never linked in fully.
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Kingsley, you're a director
of religious liberty work
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for the Seventh-day
Adventist Church in Arizona.
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And I want to pick
your brains a little bit
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on this particular program.
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I advertise this is about,
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you know, the nitty-gritty
of religious liberty,
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sometimes we deal with
more philosophical stuff.
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But, you know, right today
in your area, particularly,
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what do you see
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as some of the particular
challenges facing those
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that are
defending religious liberty?
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If we take it
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from the
standpoint of public affairs,
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and religious liberty,
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religious liberty with regards
to Sabbath accommodations,
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we live...
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Arizona is a
right to work state.
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And we've come across some
cases where the violations,
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the Sabbath
accommodations have not been met
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even by some
Christian institutions
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that do not
subscribe to the theology,
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the theological
position we take on this
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sanctity of the Sabbath.
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Explain this right to work
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because not everybody
viewing is in the United States.
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Right.
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The right to
work simply means that
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an employer can dismiss
you practically for any reason
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and be validated and
justified in doing so.
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Well, they don't need a reason.
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In fact, they
don't need a reason,
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they can just dismiss
you right out of hand.
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And there's very little
that you can do about it
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until unless it is contested,
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particularly as far
as the employment...
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And the average
person can't easily contest,
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at least not legally.
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No, unless
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the only time we've
been able to counteract that
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is if the dismissal was
based on either some kind of
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violation of civil
rights, human rights,
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or even religion
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because that is a federal law,
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the Equal Employment
Opportunity Commission
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clearly states you
cannot discriminate.
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And I can think of one case
if I can share that with you...
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Absolutely.
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You can share it with
all of these good people.
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Yes. But tell me.
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Yes, about a year ago,
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a young lady, she's
Seventh-day Adventist,
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and she had signed on
two or three years ago
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to take a course to
become a nursing practitioner.
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She paid her money,
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there was a
curriculum designed for her
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to follow until she graduated.
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And then last year,
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which would have
been her final year,
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the university wanted
her to take exams on Sabbath.
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And she said she couldn't do so.
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Saturday? Saturday.
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And she said she couldn't do
so for religious convictions.
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And this university decided,
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"Well, we've
changed the program,
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there are other
people who can do that,
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what makes you the exception?"
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where she said
that was her conviction,
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that was her beliefs,
and so on and so forth.
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And they did not
want to change the course.
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Well, of course,
then she came to us.
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And we've
researched and discovered that
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in the days that they
claimed on their website,
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we do not discriminate
on the basis of race,
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ethnicity, gender,
etcetera, etcetera or religion.
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And so they were not willing to
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make any concessions
with respect to that,
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even though she provided
means and was ready to pay
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for those exams to
be taken on another day.
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Long story short,
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of course, we
brought our legal people in.
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And then
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they decided to resolve
the conflict, the problem,
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but that was only after
she was able to transfer her
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credits to another university.
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And it was after the fact...
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They felt that was harming them.
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Well, it was
because this is their enemy.
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So that was one situation.
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And she was an immigrant,
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legally here in
the United States,
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but then they were punishing her
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because they didn't
want to make accommodation.
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I'm personally not keen
on these right to work state
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setups.
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And I think many
people would find it shocking
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if they knew about it
or thought about it much.
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You know, I'm
originally from Australia.
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You were in England,
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where the unions
are quite strong.
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Well, used to be.
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Well, they're still
very strong in Australia.
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And Seventh-day Adventists,
we have been brought up
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with certain
Skepticism on the unions,
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and there's
intimation with Sunday laws
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on a national scale
in the United States,
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the union could
well be, you know,
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a real impediment to standing
for your Sabbath conviction.
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But that said, I
really think by and large,
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unions have been a plus
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for the rights of the individual
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in the workplace.
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And I see the US is
having a huge vulnerability
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with these right to work states,
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it treats the average
worker as a disposable...
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Commodity.
Commodity, and it's not right.
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And as you
explained, it is clearly at odds
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with the claims
of the Constitution.
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But I worked in several states,
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and even I've
had church officials
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say this sort of with some glee,
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"Well, we don't need a reason."
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That's very unfocused.
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Yeah, I've heard it in circles,
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where that has
actually been done
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when we have dismissed people.
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But it is what it is.
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The best thing to say in that
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we shouldn't descend
to the level of the world,
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in this case,
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below the claims
of the state itself,
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but we should
live on a higher level.
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I said that this is a good story
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where this
institution had to see that
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they were
following the law originally
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but not the Spirit of the
Lord, not the intent of the Lord
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to protect individual
religious rights in this case.
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And as you know and I know,
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many Seventh-day
Adventist cases are like this
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for accommodation,
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either in the
workplace or for taking exams
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or whatever on the
Sabbath commitment.
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And there might be some cases
where it's not easily possible.
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But by and large,
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these are simple accommodations,
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sometimes vacation time,
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and instead of the
Sabbath that they want,
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or swapping shifts with someone,
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or colleges and universities,
they can reschedule,
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especially I know
there's been some cases
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where it's not
just been one Adventist,
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it's been several that wanted
to take it on alternate day,
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not that hard, but...
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And the other thing
I'm finding too sometimes
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what is written as part
in their policy publications
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that we do not does
not get filtered down
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to the immediate supervisor.
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So they're bringing on
people who are not familiar
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with the company's position
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on EEOC policy,
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and that does create...
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And that's a
very good point though
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because what you're getting at,
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and I know this from
dealing with religious liberty,
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with a lot of
employers and in situations
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where someone's apparently
having Sabbath problems,
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it's often as simple
as just having the pastor
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or religious liberty
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director relay the
legal situation to the body,
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they may not really know
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that the worker is
entitled to do some...
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Yeah, there's some
education. Accommodation.
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Yeah, there was
definitely some education.
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It's not always
that they're just did set
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against granting
something to someone,
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it's often essentially
ignorance to use a hard word.
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Yes. But it's not
willful ignorance.
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It's, you know,
they've never been told.
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Yeah.
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Well, we deal with, you know,
each situation differently,
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according to what
the challenges are.
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So yes, it is a right to work.
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We also have a lot of refugees
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who are fleeing their countries,
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not just for political reasons
but for religious reasons, too.
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Yeah.
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And we don't discriminate
at least while you're Muslim,
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or you're from this
faith group or what have you,
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it's the fundamental
human right for you to choose
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to believe in what
you want to believe in.
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And at least as it's running
the US to have accommodation,
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it's not necessary to
prove that you have a faith
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that requires that of
the, you know, an organization.
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It's that you're
under personal conviction.
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It's a
conscience question, is it?
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It is. It is.
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And that makes it a lot easier,
then you don't have to decide,
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"Well, is this a
religion or an angle
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that that's
worthy of consideration?"
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No, whatever they're
convicted on should be honored.
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Right.
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So in your area, in Arizona,
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you're getting
a lot of refugees?
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Where would they come from?
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I mean, how would
they get to Arizona,
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you're sort of in
the middle somewhat?
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We're a border
state, some of them have...
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Yeah, but you told me
privately they were not people
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from Mexico.
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No, they're not,
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although we do have a
very large Hispanic content.
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We've had refugees
that have been able to come
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in under political
asylum among other things,
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and migrate their way
to places where they are...
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My point is that you would
not be the first stop in the US.
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No, but when they end up,
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then they come and they
they're looking for work or,
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you know,
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they have some kind
of religious conviction
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on something and that
they need that accommodation,
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they find my office,
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and we do what
we can to help them.
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Yeah, and there's no question.
00:10:54.78\00:10:56.18
You know, I'm glad
you're bringing this up
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because as operated day to day,
00:10:57.89\00:11:01.26
our religious liberty department
00:11:01.29\00:11:03.76
performs a
wonderfully helpful service
00:11:03.79\00:11:06.86
to our community
00:11:06.90\00:11:08.23
because there's people,
00:11:08.26\00:11:09.60
religious
conviction is just one,
00:11:09.63\00:11:11.47
but it's sort of
bleeds over into, as you say,
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general refugee
status, general persecution,
00:11:13.77\00:11:16.71
and we're able to facilitate
00:11:16.74\00:11:19.77
these real
issues within society.
00:11:19.81\00:11:21.74
So it's smoothing
out a very difficult...
00:11:21.78\00:11:24.25
Well, here's another thing too.
00:11:24.28\00:11:28.02
When people become displaced
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and they're
living in a community,
00:11:30.25\00:11:31.79
and more often than not, sadly,
00:11:31.82\00:11:34.42
those can be probably
not the best places for them.
00:11:34.46\00:11:37.43
So you have more than just
the religious liberty component
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to deal with the issues.
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It's finding them reconnecting
back to Seventh-day Adventism
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or whatever
groupings that they belong to
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which requires a
certain amount of...
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It's hard work, it's
tedious, but it's rewarding.
00:11:55.34\00:11:59.61
When I talk about
public being in the public,
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understanding
what those needs are,
00:12:02.62\00:12:04.62
even above and beyond,
00:12:04.65\00:12:05.99
they might not even be a
religious liberty situation,
00:12:06.02\00:12:08.86
but it's part and parcel
of some other challenges,
00:12:08.89\00:12:11.36
the language and all those
other things, so it is broad.
00:12:11.39\00:12:15.20
Yeah. But rewarding.
00:12:15.23\00:12:17.30
Okay.
00:12:17.33\00:12:18.67
Now another area, what
else are you dealing with?
00:12:18.70\00:12:20.80
Is this...
00:12:20.84\00:12:22.20
You know, the classic
religious liberty challenge
00:12:22.24\00:12:26.04
in the United States,
00:12:26.07\00:12:27.41
if you read the media only,
00:12:27.44\00:12:29.18
you'll believe it's
between religious sensibility
00:12:29.21\00:12:32.15
and the newfound
rights of the gay
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and transgender
and lesbian community.
00:12:34.98\00:12:39.59
Is that pretty much of
a challenge in your area?
00:12:39.62\00:12:43.69
Not at this moment and time.
00:12:43.73\00:12:47.33
And I think what I do here is,
00:12:47.36\00:12:50.87
they kind of point
back to the fact that
00:12:50.90\00:12:53.34
the civil rights movement,
if I may bring that up,
00:12:53.37\00:12:58.84
laid the foundation for
other rights, civil rights,
00:12:58.87\00:13:03.31
which are not
necessarily in harmony
00:13:03.35\00:13:05.31
with the biblical
reasons why that got started.
00:13:05.35\00:13:09.68
But it has
certainly helped launch
00:13:09.72\00:13:13.46
that that particular group...
00:13:13.49\00:13:15.36
That's a bigger question, but...
00:13:15.39\00:13:16.79
It's a bigger question, but...
00:13:16.83\00:13:18.16
I almost let that run,
00:13:18.19\00:13:19.53
but I was never very comfortable
00:13:19.56\00:13:20.90
with the easy equating
00:13:20.93\00:13:22.33
of the civil
rights movement itself,
00:13:22.36\00:13:25.43
that was trying
to undo the whole
00:13:25.47\00:13:29.57
abuse of history
of a whole people,
00:13:29.60\00:13:32.17
and now to
easily equate that with
00:13:32.21\00:13:35.48
what are often
lifestyle choices...
00:13:35.51\00:13:37.51
Right.
00:13:37.55\00:13:38.88
Lifestyle choices,
00:13:38.91\00:13:40.25
which are not
based on any particular
00:13:40.28\00:13:41.62
moral obligation
00:13:41.65\00:13:43.79
and has distorted
it to some degree,
00:13:43.82\00:13:47.66
but it is also used, you know,
as a means, well, you know...
00:13:47.69\00:13:50.86
Yes, it has been.
00:13:50.89\00:13:52.23
And we've seen
cases of, you know,
00:13:52.26\00:13:54.56
the companies or organizations
00:13:54.60\00:13:58.60
that don't want to
serve certain individuals
00:13:58.63\00:14:01.64
because of what
they're asking for...
00:14:01.67\00:14:03.10
Yes, we need to
talk about that...
00:14:03.14\00:14:04.47
That's the part of
it that bothers me.
00:14:04.51\00:14:08.18
And also I'm troubled
00:14:08.21\00:14:09.91
because I don't think it's
a good dynamic that many...
00:14:09.94\00:14:12.95
even Christian groups
are sort of encouraging
00:14:12.98\00:14:14.85
the idea that it's
either their rights or ours,
00:14:14.88\00:14:18.32
their religious rights.
00:14:18.35\00:14:19.69
It's an either or,
00:14:19.72\00:14:21.29
it's not gonna turn out well
if we leave it on that level.
00:14:21.32\00:14:23.93
We'll take a short break now
00:14:23.96\00:14:25.36
and be back to
continue this discussion
00:14:25.39\00:14:27.43
that's now on to a
very topical aspect
00:14:27.46\00:14:30.27
of civil and
religious liberties.
00:14:30.30\00:14:32.53