Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI190430B
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00:04 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:05 Before the break, 00:07 we were in India 00:08 and getting very philosophical and otherworldly. 00:12 India is an interesting country, 00:14 it's moving at the speed of light into the 21st century. 00:19 Last time, I was there I stopped off... 00:20 now I forgot the name of the town, 00:22 but they have their own Silicon Valley 00:23 in the Hill Country. 00:25 It's much more technological... 00:27 It's probably in Bombay or Pune. 00:32 It was in the hill country, but anyhow, in the middle. 00:35 But the point is 00:36 India's moving toward technological advancements 00:39 very quickly, they make their own cars. 00:41 Right. 00:42 And I seem to remember that 00:45 they're moving towards space vehicles and all the rest. 00:48 They have the atomic bomb. 00:50 So they're not to be dismissed. 00:52 They're modernizing, 00:53 but it still remains a massively populous country 00:57 with huge challenges to feed and to occupy the citizenry. 01:04 But on the religious level, 01:05 it needs an enduring challenge out 01:09 to untangle all of the religious identities 01:14 and connect from a Western Christian point of view. 01:18 And so you were privileged, 01:19 I think, to be there for a while. 01:21 Right. 01:22 While we were there, 01:24 our house was open to the students 01:27 from other campuses, 01:29 who had friends on the campuses, Spicer. 01:33 And we saw over a period of time, again, 01:40 how powerful the gospel really was. 01:43 By watching these kids from all different places 01:45 in the same place, 01:47 eating the same food, talking about things that 01:51 they would normally not talk about. 01:52 In fact, we had young people in our homes. 01:55 For example, at the time, 01:57 Eritrea and Somalia were at war, 01:59 and you had these kids sitting down in our house, 02:02 right? 02:04 There were things we couldn't do in the classroom 02:05 that we could do at home and forming relationships 02:08 and getting a better understanding. 02:10 And also from the standpoint of having been born in England 02:13 and lived in the United States and then going to India shaped 02:19 how that journey developed. 02:22 Did you have many dealings 02:25 with the Sikhs, with Sikhism, and... 02:28 Not really because we were down in the southern part of India. 02:33 There's an element of Sikhism all over India, 02:35 but it originates in the North West. 02:38 In Kashmir, for example. Well, not as such that... 02:43 Our connection with the Sikh community 02:44 would have happened in the United Kingdom, right? 02:48 But the confluence... 02:50 Yeah, I'm bringing it up for a reason 02:51 because from post 9/11 in the US in particular, 02:56 there's been a great confusion in many people's minds 03:00 between Sikhism and Islam, and they're not even close. 03:04 Well, I shouldn't say they're not close. 03:06 There's an element of influence, 03:07 but they're extremely distinct. 03:10 They are. 03:11 And Sikhism doesn't have any correspondence 03:15 to actions of the Islamic community. 03:19 But what do you know about Sikhs? 03:21 I, again, what do I know... They're a warrior... 03:25 Yeah, they are warrior... 03:27 Offshoot that has elements of Islam in their history and, 03:31 of course, trying to combine this with Hinduism, 03:36 but they are more tied up to one God is that... 03:39 That's what I want to respond to. 03:41 They believe in monotheistic God. 03:45 They're very, very structured, 03:47 it's an amazing religion to observe. 03:51 And they have probably more connections to 03:54 what we believe 03:55 in terms of how their communities are developed. 03:57 Like I was saying, we experienced them in England, 04:01 but we never got to spend time with them. 04:04 There were no Sikhs coming down to South India 04:06 to Spicer in particular. 04:09 I recall an experience 04:10 if I can just flip from India to here. 04:13 The week after 9/11, it was the Thursday. 04:17 I had to go and speak at a church in Tennessee. 04:20 I was a little afraid of jumping on a plane. 04:22 This was the Thursday, no, the week, 10 days after. 04:26 I remember for several months after, 04:28 you know, quiet didn't know what was gonna happen. 04:30 And so travel is an education. 04:34 So we're on the plane, and then a Sikh family, 04:38 brother had his turban on. 04:40 And they had a little boy, 04:42 probably around seven or eight years old. 04:45 They get onto the plane, 04:47 and they were sitting adjacent to where I was. 04:51 And I remember the little boy kind of looking around. 04:54 And when he sat down he said to his father and mother, 04:57 "Why are people looking at us like this?" 05:02 And his father said, 05:04 "Well, it may be because they don't know us," 05:06 but he was not old enough to understand the implications 05:11 and the innuendos 05:13 and how people are feeling 05:15 about this group of people who... 05:17 very few people may on that plane 05:19 may have known as being different to 05:22 the ones who actually carried out the bombing. 05:24 And I sat down, and I thought to myself, 05:27 "This young boy is experiencing something 05:32 that his father could not explain it. 05:34 He didn't want to at that particular time." 05:36 But I could sense that the disconnect and how... 05:41 I'm sure it's traumatic for them. 05:42 It was. 05:44 And to be fully really fair, 05:46 I'm sure it was traumatic for many Muslims 05:49 in the United States who... 05:51 Right. 05:52 Not personally were any way involved, and many of them, 05:55 most of them, hopefully, 05:57 not even sympathetic to what was done in the name 05:59 or involving their religion. 06:02 There's more logic to why they might come under a frown, 06:05 but for someone that's not even of that religion 06:09 absolutely to be seen as a threat, 06:11 that must have been traumatizing. 06:13 It was traumatic, and I felt the trauma, 06:16 you know, watching that play out, 06:18 and I was thankful to God, again, 06:21 on the pilgrimage journey 06:23 that I had an opportunity to be able to engage them 06:26 in two different contexts but still could feel as, 06:32 you know, 06:33 the general mood of people who look different 06:36 and come from other different places can be aligned 06:39 or misaligned with things that they have no connection to. 06:45 Religion is a very interesting dynamic. 06:47 It is. 06:48 And the Sikhs as a community and aggregable community 06:55 and most people don't know their religion. 06:59 They're not violent as a community, 07:03 but it is interesting that they celebrate, 07:05 if not a violence, than a warlike thing. 07:08 Yes, they've got that ceremonial sword 07:10 that they wear. 07:11 It is the Kirpan or something. Yeah. 07:13 The ceremonial sword, 07:15 and as India found out, 07:21 there was that rebellion. 07:22 I don't think it was in Kashmir per se, 07:24 but at the center of the Sikh community around Amritsar, 07:29 there was a civil war for a while in India 07:32 and then the Prime Minister of India, 07:34 Mrs. Gandhi was killed by one of the Sikh guy. 07:36 Right, of course, yes. 07:37 So my point is that it's not just Islam that has Jihad 07:41 and an element that can turn into violence, 07:44 Sikhism has it too, 07:46 Christianity's had it with the crusades, 07:48 and so on, and from one religion to another, 07:51 the connection can be more direct 07:54 or it may just be as simple as the other 07:56 and then take antagonism as a buildup. 07:59 But religion can turn anti-social and violent, 08:04 unfortunately, quite quickly. 08:06 And if I can kind of migrate from India 08:12 back here to the United States. 08:14 Your pilgrimage is getting longer and longer, you're... 08:15 My pilgrimage is moving on. Yes, it is. 08:18 You'll get your frequent flyer bonus. 08:23 Here is the other thing too, and going back to 08:26 what I love about this particular ministry 08:28 in terms of engagement and things like that, 08:32 I remember transitioning from a Sunday keeping church 08:37 to become a Seventh-day Adventist. 08:40 And that was a culture shock in and of itself 08:43 because of what they teach you. 08:44 And Seventh-day Adventist worship, 08:46 the day that was given in the Old Testament and first, 08:50 the seventh day Sabbath, 08:51 moralizing creation is Saturday. 08:54 Right. 08:55 But I do remember coming in 08:57 and trying to understand this thing about the Sabbath and, 09:02 you know, and all the other things 09:04 and Ellen G. White, and the teachings... 09:06 She was a prophetic... 09:08 A woman with a prophetic gifts 09:10 that helped found the Seventh-day Adventist Church. 09:12 And I knew that later, 09:14 but I did not accept her straight away. 09:17 But I could not help feeling even among our community, 09:21 the Seventh-day Adventist community, 09:23 just coming in 09:25 feeling as though I was not totally accepted because, 09:30 you know, those first day people, 09:32 these terminologies, these wreck frame 09:34 of references were not complimentary. 09:36 But among us... 09:38 even today, you know, 09:40 how we view other people who may go to 09:43 "Oh, you've got the mark of the beast 09:45 because you worshipped on Sunday," 09:46 and all these kinds of things. 09:47 Definitely need to use religion as in a pejorative way 09:51 against anyone else. 09:52 Yes. It's fine. 09:54 You and I believe that we have a correct theology 09:57 and we found the truth, 09:58 but we need to look at others in a charitable way 10:00 and grant them that same right. 10:02 Yes, I totally agree with that. 10:05 So here we are, again, 10:07 my journey has taken so many twists and turns 10:11 in the last 30-some years. 10:13 But I'm glad for the journey and it's been a benefit to me 10:16 and I thank God for the experience. 10:21 I remember one day visiting Myanmar 10:24 and walking through the capital of Yangon, 10:26 I think, as they call it now. 10:28 And coming upon an incredible monument 10:32 with all of the deities, 10:34 I think they were Hindu deities, it wasn't Buddhist, 10:37 but all of the deities intertwined 10:39 and scrambling over each other 10:41 in a great mix of divine personages as we like. 10:48 And I had a trouble applying myself to that. 10:52 But this has been the human problem from the beginning. 10:55 Back in the Old Testament, 10:56 Moses there on the mountain said to God, 10:59 "Show me Your face" 11:03 And who can look upon the face of God. 11:05 But Moses was shown and explicated by God himself, 11:09 His character, and I like to think 11:11 that with religious liberty, 11:13 we can look into the character of God 11:15 and apply it to our fellas, rediscover 11:18 what it is to be creatures of the God of the universe. 11:24 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2019-04-19