Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI190429B
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00:04 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:06 Before the break with guest, Kingsley, 00:09 we were on your pilgrimage. 00:13 That's correct. 00:15 So where are you going? Where did you come from? 00:19 Again, you'll have to repeat a little 00:21 and then pick up on a literal story. 00:26 But I think you're creating a symbolic structure here 00:30 for the search for identity and finding of an identity. 00:35 As I'm told West African ancestry, 00:40 the migration of my people, 00:46 Africans to the Western hemisphere, 00:49 they're settling in under slavery. 00:53 From Brazil, to the Caribbean, to America, 00:58 all one family, 01:00 different tribes, 01:02 but essentially one group of people. 01:05 And in coming here to go to school, 01:09 to study for theology and things like that, 01:11 and living in those neighborhoods, 01:14 in those communities. 01:16 I have found a commonality in terms of the struggle, 01:21 in terms of the challenges. 01:23 I've been able to connect things that I grew up in 01:25 and watch in England, of all places, 01:29 that the story is very similar here in these United States, 01:34 you know, in terms of integration, 01:36 acceptance, fairness, equality, all those other things, 01:41 it manifested itself differently in Britain, 01:43 but we had a form of, you know, that kind of... 01:46 I think in England the problem would have been more 01:51 cultural impediments to integration 01:53 or to full acceptance 01:56 where in the US even in my memory, 01:59 because I came to the US in the civil rights era. 02:01 They were actual laws designed to that get hard 02:05 for certain groups, particularly African-Americans. 02:08 The British didn't make laws. 02:10 That's what I'm suggesting. 02:11 But it was unspoken. Oh, I'm certain. 02:15 That my father would tell me that when he got to England, 02:18 there was a list of, 02:20 there would be a list of individuals 02:22 who they did not want living in communities. 02:25 And right below just above 02:29 blacks were dogs. 02:33 And so, you understood or at least he understood 02:37 as an immigrant, there was a place for him, 02:40 which was nowhere near the middle, 02:42 let alone the highest. 02:43 And so here I am, 02:45 born into a system 02:48 where you had a grammar stream in terms of education 02:52 and then you had the comprehensive stream, 02:54 and most people of color, 02:56 or of other ethnic persuasions were down at the bottom 03:00 and the expectation was that once you finished high school, 03:04 of if you did progress to go on to college, 03:06 the most you could ever be in the British workforce 03:09 was maybe an assistant or a supervisor. 03:12 But beyond that, to break the mold and to move higher, 03:16 that was a no go. 03:18 So and I've saw a similar thing here. 03:20 And that's improved a lot in England in the past. 03:22 Well, it has I mean, it still leaves much to be desired. 03:24 Visibly, I think it's improved 'cause... 03:26 Well, yes, but you now have a generation of young people. 03:31 There's my children and then their children 03:35 who are growing up and feeling disenfranchised 03:38 because the educational system is not provide, 03:41 although it's still fairly good. 03:43 The jobs are not there, there's social unrest. 03:46 In the '80s, they had the riots going on 03:48 and so on and so forth, 03:50 almost typical to what we had here 03:54 in the '50s and the '60s. 03:56 I grew up in the '60s and the '70s, 03:59 so and as I could compare that journey. 04:01 Let me throw a real wild card into it 04:04 and I'd like your opinion. 04:05 I know that in the US, 04:08 there's in the past and perhaps still 04:11 there's a strong sentiment 04:12 in some African-American communities 04:16 that in spite of the experience, 04:19 or at least the cliche from the Deep South days 04:23 of the spirituals and Negro spirituals 04:29 and Christian worship. 04:31 There's sort of a sentiment now 04:33 that Christianity is not the most natural religion 04:37 for the descendants of those people 04:38 that in accepting and advancing Christianity, 04:42 they're sort of playing along with the game 04:45 and they should reject the religion 04:47 of the once enslaved them, 04:50 and so the appeal is very strong for Islam 04:54 or for nothing. 04:56 I remember once interrupting 04:58 a group of African-American pastors down south, 05:03 I won't say where but you could guess 05:05 they were in vigorous debate. 05:08 Right. 05:11 Pretty much two factions divided. 05:12 And when I came upon them, they shut up like that 05:15 just because I came around the corner on. 05:17 And I said, what are you talking about? 05:19 And first nothing, and then one says, 05:21 "Why don't we ask him." 05:22 So I found that they were discussing 05:24 whether or not 05:26 Christianity or Islam 05:28 was the most appropriate religion 05:30 for blacks in America today. 05:33 And that's a reasonable discussion, 05:35 but it shocked me, 05:36 that here these were Christian ministers 05:37 of a certain denomination, they were actively debating. 05:40 So the appeal is very real. 05:42 And I know the history of black Muslims. 05:44 They're not really Muslims in the sense 05:47 that any orthodox for one of a better word Muslim 05:50 and the rest of the world would accept them. 05:52 It's a very hybrid thing. 05:53 And it's be all and end all really is a rejection 05:57 and an alternate spiritual and historic universe 06:01 from Christianity and the West. 06:04 Well, again, if we think of Malcolm X, right? 06:09 Who in a way reacted against that. 06:13 Yes, he did but. That's why he was killed. 06:15 We all know how he started out. 06:17 But I think we need to remember that, as I said before, 06:23 black people have always had an understanding 06:27 and interpretation for our cultural experiences 06:30 in Africa. 06:31 And since we moved to the western hemisphere, 06:33 as to how we perceived and understood God. 06:36 Now, you have to remember that the British at that time, 06:41 while this was all going on, in Africa, 06:44 brought a certain kind of religion, 06:47 Protestant, actually, 06:49 and so taught certain people from Africa in their colonies, 06:56 a certain way of worship. 06:57 It was a little more conservative, right? 07:00 But we still had those ways in which we would communicate 07:05 what our experience and our theology through experience. 07:08 Well, it is... 07:09 That question was in element of religious imperialism. 07:12 Right, it was. 07:13 And part of the answer, 07:14 I think is to disengage or disconnect 07:17 the faith from the imperialist or the cultural trappings. 07:20 Right. 07:21 It's the only way you can survive. 07:23 Well, that's true, 07:24 but not at the expense of you losing your own, 07:28 ride your own identity. 07:29 And so here you had... 07:32 We've always been, no matter where you go, 07:34 you will always find elements of the same thing, 07:37 be it in Jamaica, 07:39 be it here in the United States or elsewhere. 07:43 It's interesting how 07:44 that is still pretty much in place. 07:47 And so when you have people 07:49 that have come from the continent of Africa, 07:51 who've been more conservative or more Protestant 07:53 in terms of their dialogue, in terms of what they believe, 07:58 and you got this more expressive, 08:01 you know, the gospels, 08:02 the Negro spirituals and all that expression, 08:05 we are very expressive people, no matter where you find us, 08:08 and interpreting our experience or our pilgrimage 08:13 to what we have seen and what we've been through, 08:16 it's a little more, less conservative. 08:19 And the conflict 08:21 and we've had to do that to maintain 08:24 and to sustain our identity 08:27 theologically, socially, culturally, 08:30 but it all comes together. 08:31 I have found that there are more similarities 08:33 than there are differences. 08:36 And I will say this, sometime... 08:40 This is what my father told me when he left the Caribbean, 08:44 went to England, 08:45 and he was taught to view people from Africa 08:49 as being lower, 08:51 the Dark Continent as it were. 08:54 And it wasn't until he got to England 08:55 and began to meet with and mingle with, 08:58 we even had families that lived in the same house. 09:01 And we understood, wait, this is your story, 09:04 this is my story, here's our story. 09:08 And move on from there. 09:10 Same thing has happened here. 09:11 And unfortunately, we all move on. 09:12 Like I've gone back to Australia 09:16 to live for a while and I enjoyed it. 09:18 But in some ways, 09:20 it was a different Australia and I was sort of, 09:23 somewhat of an outsider. 09:25 And I'm sure that 09:27 African-Americans for one of the better term, 09:29 these terms become less acceptable, I guess. 09:33 In the US, 09:34 they don't necessarily have a strong affinity 09:37 with people in Africa as they kmight want, 09:41 because they've been culturally changed 09:43 in many, many and various ways. 09:44 And intentionally divided. 09:46 Yes, I thought it was intentional. 09:48 But most of it, I think a lot of it was 09:50 and that's why you, 09:52 you know, the meeting of the mind 09:53 saw the comparison or contrast of how we do 09:57 what we do in terms of how we experienced God. 10:01 But the good part of this is that, yeah, 10:02 God can be rediscovered. 10:04 He's not owned by any culture. 10:06 Thank God for that. Yes. 10:09 And we might be quite shocked 10:12 to discover the culture of heaven 10:14 that's probably radically different 10:16 from all the earth ways. 10:18 Well, it's got to be better than what we've got down here. 10:20 Yeah, but thanks for sharing your pilgrimage. 10:23 Yes, I'm still on it. 10:24 Yeah, well, we're all on it. 10:26 It's like someone once came into a town and asked someone, 10:29 "Have you lived here all your life?" 10:31 And they said "No, not yet." 10:34 So... Yes. 10:35 So any parting words on your... 10:38 My journey to the United States since enabled me 10:43 to understand who I am 10:44 and connect with the community guys, now serve, 10:47 and I'm thankful to God for all of that. 10:50 I'm still on that journey. 10:53 Growing up in Australia, I often remember singing 10:56 along to the song, land of hope and glory, 11:00 mother of the free. 11:03 Very many people think of their homeland as a mother. 11:07 Although Germany, I guess the fatherland. 11:09 But there's a source of freedom 11:12 that we often ascribe to the country 11:14 and to the home and half and so on. 11:16 But it's worth remembering in this modern world 11:18 where we've all come from somewhere else by and large, 11:21 and the world is still an ongoing melting pot. 11:25 And differences are being broken down, 11:27 right, left and center, that the source of our liberty, 11:30 the source of our freedom can't be the land, 11:33 it can't be even a people. 11:34 It must be a God. It must be a principle. 11:37 And that principle, the freedom of conscience 11:41 that we cherish so dearly needs to be defended 11:44 and recognized for such a transcendent thing as it is. 11:49 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2019-04-15