Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI190428B
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00:04 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:05 Before the break, with guest Kingsley Palmer, 00:10 we were sort of invoking your English background 00:13 and my Australian and riffing on about 00:18 what had informed English democracy 00:20 and how it relates to religion and politics. 00:23 And then, of course, 00:25 always some applications to the US. 00:27 And in the break, 00:29 we were continuing the discussion. 00:32 There's no question that, you know, 00:35 I think you'd say it in the English system, 00:37 religion is a private matter and you often 00:40 can keep that private, and it's not so contentious. 00:44 It's a very public matter in the US, 00:46 and it's very contentious. 00:48 I can hardly remember it, 00:50 it more polarizing than it is today. 00:53 And so I'm just sort of fishing for some guidelines 00:57 from the English system, 01:00 and to reiterate what we had discuss 01:01 very polarizing in Parliament in England, 01:04 but the society is relatively benign. 01:06 I know, in London, 01:08 I've been to some suburbs 01:09 where you might not feel even safe going, 01:12 but that's true of any big city, 01:14 unfortunately. 01:15 But England, generally, in the countryside, 01:18 it's like you step back in time. 01:20 But I must say this, I must say this. 01:23 I want people very, very clear. 01:26 Growing up as an immigrant, in Britain, 01:29 it was not all land of hope and glory. 01:34 We came to rebuild the country 01:38 from all parts of the world. 01:41 And you had this stratified system of class, 01:45 which kept immigrants of color 01:50 at a lower level. 01:52 It was in the educational system, 01:54 it was in the employment situation. 01:58 I saw that firsthand. 02:00 And I know how that felt. 02:02 Then, coming here, 02:05 I've seen much of the same thing. 02:07 And I've spent most of my life here. 02:10 And people, that's why they say, 02:12 religion is a... 02:15 That's a private matter. 02:16 But it also has implications 02:18 because not so much of what we're appearing 02:20 not to do or to do is, 02:23 in the meantime, 02:25 how are you taking care of the individuals. 02:27 I go back to the Stranger Within My Gate 02:29 in terms of programs, 02:31 in terms of opportunities and things like that. 02:33 It's almost a parallel 02:35 that I see here in the United States. 02:37 I've been here nearly 40 years, on and off, 02:39 nearly 40 years. 02:40 I've grown up here. 02:42 Well, it's many of the same dynamics, 02:43 you're right. 02:44 But let me really throw a wrench into your thoughts. 02:46 Okay. 02:48 In England, there've been, 02:51 I think, arguably more embracing of Islamic refugees 02:55 that are more recent than others. 03:00 By my understanding, 03:02 the Islamic wave of immigrants is certainly, 03:04 in recent decades, not immediately 03:06 after World War II, into England. 03:11 So Islam seems to have been somewhat compatible in England 03:16 as well as other political stripes. 03:20 Remember, Marx and Engels 03:23 did their studies in England. 03:24 England's been an interesting place. 03:26 In fact, 03:27 I'd even read that 03:28 there was almost an understanding 03:30 with some of these revolutionaries 03:31 that they could operate in England 03:33 as long as they didn't turn it on England. 03:34 Go out and... 03:35 So it's been accommodating. 03:37 But one area of accommodation that historically, 03:40 in England, was very problematic 03:43 was the Roman Catholic Church of England divide. 03:47 Did you see... 03:49 You mentioned, in another program, 03:52 Northern Ireland, obviously, the Irish question continued. 03:55 But is it seen in England still as an us versus them 04:00 religious thing... 04:02 No, it isn't because... Catholic versus Protestants. 04:04 Because once the hostilities, they had to be in agreement, 04:07 right? 04:08 We're going to have to live and let live. 04:10 Shin Fein became political, 04:12 became part of the process of decision making. 04:16 Northern Ireland wanted to remain Protestant, 04:19 so to speak, and live and let live. 04:23 And so it became more tolerant. 04:26 We don't have the kind of vitriol 04:28 that we used to have. 04:29 However, 04:31 I wish I could say the same for what I'm saying here. 04:34 That's where I'm leaving next. 04:35 Okay. 04:36 So why the difference? 04:38 What's going on here? 04:40 Again, I think ignorance plays on an awful part. 04:44 Now, of course, the United States 04:48 has a recent history of severe issues 04:53 between Catholics and Protestants. 04:55 When I say recent, not our lifetime, but, 05:00 you know, 05:02 the Irish question in the US was incredible. 05:04 I mean, they were seen as not just so much Irish 05:07 as Catholics coming here into a Protestant country. 05:10 And there was extreme violence against them. 05:14 The anti Catholicism in the US was severe. 05:16 And just before I came to the US, 05:19 President Kennedy was elected here. 05:21 And that was sort of the last gasp 05:22 for really vociferous opposition 05:25 to Catholic involvement. 05:27 And, you know, today, 05:28 Catholics are at all levels of government and society, 05:30 but I'm not really sure the underlying 05:35 divide between religions has gone away in the US. 05:38 No, it hasn't. 05:40 And I believe they're still... 05:41 In fact, if anything, 05:43 is I'm seeing a reemergence 05:46 of the deadly cocktail 05:50 of mixing politics 05:53 with your fundamental Christian beliefs. 05:57 And it's not just limited to Catholics and Protestants. 06:00 Yes, as you rightly said, 06:01 they are in different strata of government, 06:05 right, because they've been here long enough. 06:08 But prophetically speaking, 06:09 we all know this, in Seventh-day Adventist, 06:11 what's going to happen, you know? 06:12 What is it? Tell our viewers. 06:14 Well, yeah, we believe that there's going to be 06:19 a reemergence of Catholicism, 06:26 you know, with respect to resurgence... 06:27 Resurgence might be the word. 06:29 Resurgence of Catholicism in terms of 06:34 the right to believe 06:35 and be independent in your belief 06:38 no matter what faith you belong to, 06:40 and pretty much a repeat of history 06:44 from the 15th or 16th century, prophetically, 06:47 where there's going to be a convergence 06:50 of church and state 06:51 where church will determine what the state thinks, 06:54 how it behaves. 06:56 And the most dangerous part about that is we will not... 07:02 It's going to be... 07:03 It's an offense to what we consider 07:05 to be freedom to think, and to believe, 07:08 and to choose what I... 07:09 Part of what you say has already happened. 07:11 Yes. 07:12 And now it seems self-evident, but, you know, certainly, 07:16 a century ago or a lifetime ago, 07:19 you'd have been laughed out of the discussion 07:23 if you'd said that Rome would become 07:24 the dominant religious force in the world. 07:28 The bishop of Rome now is fated everywhere he goes, 07:30 even in once Abraham Lincoln Protestant America. 07:35 So that part of it had happened, 07:36 but what we expect from our reading of prophecy, 07:41 Revelation 13 in particular, is that the lamb like beast 07:46 identified with the United States, 07:48 a somewhat benign appearing political entity 07:51 will function as rounded during the Middle Ages. 07:56 But it will be benign. 08:00 It will appear to be benign as it is now. 08:01 Well, doesn't it shift? 08:04 And how did Rome function? 08:07 It forced its religious view through its edicts 08:11 and in association with government power. 08:14 And so I think we can see 08:16 the beginnings of that in the United States. 08:19 It's spattered in and out through its history. 08:21 But at the moment, 08:23 there's this sense of great threat 08:24 from other religions and other forces. 08:26 There's this incredible alliance 08:28 with the politically active religious group who, 08:34 you know, you read their material, 08:35 they're just hungering to have legislation 08:37 to support their particular view, 08:40 their religious entitlement. 08:41 So I think it's upon us. 08:43 Yeah, I've lived here long enough 08:45 to see the rise of the moral majority. 08:47 Yeah, in the '70s. In the '70s and '80s. 08:51 Well, and beyond, but it began in the '70s. 08:52 And beyond that. 08:54 And then you have certain religious groups 08:57 who will claim, on the one hand, 08:59 that there should be a separation 09:01 of church and state, 09:03 but there is an unholy alliance 09:06 where my politics determines 09:11 my theology or what I believe. 09:15 And the divide between certain... 09:20 I don't want to use the term, 09:21 but certain elements within Christianity 09:24 that are lobbying 09:27 and trying to influence the narrative, 09:31 as it were, as to what is acceptable, 09:34 what is not acceptable, 09:36 this unholy alliances as I will call it. 09:39 And if you're a person outside, 09:42 if you're if you're a Muslim 09:43 or if you're some other faith or religion, 09:46 what you believe is being demeaned 09:48 and even pushed to the side for political reasons. 09:52 The most troubling thing about it is it's not only 09:53 against the Bible, 09:55 from a Christian point of view, 09:57 it's really against the stated principles 09:59 of the United States, the founding principles. 10:00 Right, separation of church and state. 10:02 So everything is being imploded to this religious agenda. 10:08 Exactly. 10:09 So where do you think it's about to go? 10:10 What's about to happen? 10:12 We leave old England, and the mother country... 10:14 Well, let's leave that alone. 10:16 In few seconds ahead, just give your succinct... 10:19 Churchill said this in 1948, 10:21 "Those who forget the lessons of the past are doomed 10:27 to repeat it sometime in the future." 10:30 And that's very dangerous when you consider that 10:33 we are now seeing this come to pass, 10:36 maybe we have not learned as much as we should, 10:39 and it's a dangerous cause. 10:41 And I think we need to really make sure 10:45 that we do what we can with the time we have. 10:49 When I was barely out of my teens, 10:52 I came under the powerful influence 10:54 of Handel's Messiah. 10:56 I listened to it over and over again. 10:58 And those words taken, of course, 11:00 from the biblical narrative are powerful, 11:02 where it talks about Jesus, a Man of sorrows 11:05 and acquainted with grief. 11:07 And then it says 11:08 that He gave His back to the smiter. 11:11 With that divine example, 11:13 I think it puts into a little perspective 11:16 the horrors of our human existence in human history. 11:20 The slavery 11:21 that was even done in the name of Christianity 11:24 at times, 11:26 the abuses and the conquest and the murders, 11:28 all of that is horrible but I believe fades 11:31 into at least its proper perspective 11:34 when we think of the divine sacrifice, 11:37 the willingness of heaven to share in our suffering 11:40 and at the same time to offer liberty 11:43 and freedom beyond these constraints. 11:47 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2019-04-19