Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
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Before the break,
with guest Kingsley Palmer,
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we were sort of
invoking your English background
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and my Australian
and riffing on about
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what had
informed English democracy
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and how it relates to
religion and politics.
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And then, of course,
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always some
applications to the US.
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And in the break,
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we were
continuing the discussion.
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There's no
question that, you know,
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I think you'd say it
in the English system,
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religion is a
private matter and you often
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can keep that private,
and it's not so contentious.
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It's a very
public matter in the US,
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and it's very contentious.
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I can hardly remember it,
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it more
polarizing than it is today.
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And so I'm just sort of
fishing for some guidelines
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from the English system,
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and to reiterate
what we had discuss
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very polarizing in
Parliament in England,
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but the society
is relatively benign.
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I know, in London,
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I've been to some suburbs
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where you might not
feel even safe going,
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but that's true of any big city,
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unfortunately.
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But England,
generally, in the countryside,
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it's like you step back in time.
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But I must say
this, I must say this.
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I want people very, very clear.
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Growing up as an
immigrant, in Britain,
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it was not all
land of hope and glory.
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We came to rebuild the country
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from all parts of the world.
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And you had this
stratified system of class,
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which kept immigrants of color
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at a lower level.
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It was in the
educational system,
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it was in the
employment situation.
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I saw that firsthand.
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And I know how that felt.
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Then, coming here,
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I've seen much
of the same thing.
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And I've spent
most of my life here.
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And people, that's why they say,
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religion is a...
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That's a private matter.
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But it also has implications
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because not so much
of what we're appearing
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not to do or to do is,
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in the meantime,
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how are you taking
care of the individuals.
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I go back to the
Stranger Within My Gate
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in terms of programs,
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in terms of opportunities
and things like that.
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It's almost a parallel
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that I see here
in the United States.
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I've been here
nearly 40 years, on and off,
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nearly 40 years.
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I've grown up here.
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Well, it's many
of the same dynamics,
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you're right.
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But let me really throw a
wrench into your thoughts.
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Okay.
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In England, there've been,
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I think, arguably more
embracing of Islamic refugees
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that are more
recent than others.
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By my understanding,
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the Islamic wave of
immigrants is certainly,
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in recent
decades, not immediately
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after World War
II, into England.
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So Islam seems to have been
somewhat compatible in England
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as well as other
political stripes.
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Remember, Marx and Engels
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did their studies in England.
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England's been an
interesting place.
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In fact,
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I'd even read that
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there was
almost an understanding
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with some of
these revolutionaries
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that they could
operate in England
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as long as they
didn't turn it on England.
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Go out and...
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So it's been accommodating.
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But one area of
accommodation that historically,
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in England, was very problematic
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was the Roman Catholic
Church of England divide.
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Did you see...
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You mentioned,
in another program,
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Northern Ireland, obviously,
the Irish question continued.
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But is it seen in England
still as an us versus them
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religious thing...
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No, it isn't because...
Catholic versus Protestants.
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Because once the hostilities,
they had to be in agreement,
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right?
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We're going to have
to live and let live.
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Shin Fein became political,
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became part of the
process of decision making.
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Northern Ireland
wanted to remain Protestant,
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so to speak, and
live and let live.
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And so it became more tolerant.
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We don't have
the kind of vitriol
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that we used to have.
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However,
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I wish I could say the
same for what I'm saying here.
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That's where I'm leaving next.
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Okay.
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So why the difference?
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What's going on here?
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Again, I think ignorance
plays on an awful part.
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Now, of course,
the United States
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has a recent
history of severe issues
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between
Catholics and Protestants.
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When I say recent,
not our lifetime, but,
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you know,
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the Irish question in
the US was incredible.
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I mean, they were seen
as not just so much Irish
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as Catholics coming here
into a Protestant country.
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And there was extreme
violence against them.
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The anti Catholicism
in the US was severe.
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And just before
I came to the US,
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President
Kennedy was elected here.
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And that was
sort of the last gasp
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for really vociferous opposition
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to Catholic involvement.
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And, you know, today,
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Catholics are at all levels
of government and society,
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but I'm not really
sure the underlying
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divide between religions
has gone away in the US.
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No, it hasn't.
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And I believe they're still...
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In fact, if anything,
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is I'm seeing a reemergence
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of the deadly cocktail
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of mixing politics
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with your
fundamental Christian beliefs.
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And it's not just limited
to Catholics and Protestants.
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Yes, as you rightly said,
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they are in
different strata of government,
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right, because
they've been here long enough.
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But prophetically speaking,
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we all know this, in
Seventh-day Adventist,
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what's going to
happen, you know?
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What is it? Tell our viewers.
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Well, yeah, we believe
that there's going to be
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a reemergence of Catholicism,
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you know, with
respect to resurgence...
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Resurgence might be the word.
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Resurgence of
Catholicism in terms of
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the right to believe
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and be
independent in your belief
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no matter what
faith you belong to,
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and pretty much
a repeat of history
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from the 15th or 16th
century, prophetically,
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where there's
going to be a convergence
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of church and state
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where church will
determine what the state thinks,
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how it behaves.
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And the most dangerous part
about that is we will not...
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It's going to be...
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It's an offense
to what we consider
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to be freedom to
think, and to believe,
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and to choose what I...
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Part of what you say
has already happened.
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Yes.
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And now it seems self-evident,
but, you know, certainly,
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a century ago or a lifetime ago,
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you'd have been
laughed out of the discussion
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if you'd said
that Rome would become
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the dominant
religious force in the world.
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The bishop of Rome now
is fated everywhere he goes,
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even in once Abraham
Lincoln Protestant America.
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So that part of it had happened,
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but what we expect from
our reading of prophecy,
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Revelation 13 in particular,
is that the lamb like beast
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identified with
the United States,
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a somewhat benign
appearing political entity
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will function as
rounded during the Middle Ages.
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But it will be benign.
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It will appear to
be benign as it is now.
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Well, doesn't it shift?
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And how did Rome function?
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It forced its religious
view through its edicts
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and in association
with government power.
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And so I think we can see
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the beginnings of
that in the United States.
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It's spattered in and
out through its history.
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But at the moment,
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there's this
sense of great threat
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from other
religions and other forces.
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There's this incredible alliance
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with the politically
active religious group who,
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you know, you
read their material,
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they're just
hungering to have legislation
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to support
their particular view,
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their religious entitlement.
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So I think it's upon us.
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Yeah, I've
lived here long enough
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to see the rise of
the moral majority.
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Yeah, in the '70s.
In the '70s and '80s.
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Well, and beyond,
but it began in the '70s.
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And beyond that.
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And then you have
certain religious groups
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who will claim, on the one hand,
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that there
should be a separation
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of church and state,
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but there is an unholy alliance
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where my politics determines
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my theology or what I believe.
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And the divide
between certain...
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I don't want to use the term,
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but certain
elements within Christianity
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that are lobbying
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and trying to
influence the narrative,
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as it were, as to
what is acceptable,
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what is not acceptable,
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this unholy
alliances as I will call it.
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And if you're a person outside,
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if you're if you're a Muslim
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or if you're some
other faith or religion,
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what you believe
is being demeaned
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and even pushed to the
side for political reasons.
00:09:48.92\00:09:52.25
The most troubling thing
about it is it's not only
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against the Bible,
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from a Christian point of view,
00:09:55.62\00:09:57.26
it's really against
the stated principles
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of the United States,
the founding principles.
00:09:59.36\00:10:00.76
Right, separation
of church and state.
00:10:00.80\00:10:02.13
So everything is being imploded
to this religious agenda.
00:10:02.16\00:10:08.20
Exactly.
00:10:08.24\00:10:09.57
So where do you
think it's about to go?
00:10:09.60\00:10:10.94
What's about to happen?
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We leave old England,
and the mother country...
00:10:12.34\00:10:14.34
Well, let's leave that alone.
00:10:14.38\00:10:16.18
In few seconds ahead,
just give your succinct...
00:10:16.21\00:10:19.25
Churchill said this in 1948,
00:10:19.28\00:10:21.72
"Those who forget the
lessons of the past are doomed
00:10:21.75\00:10:27.22
to repeat it
sometime in the future."
00:10:27.26\00:10:30.36
And that's very
dangerous when you consider that
00:10:30.39\00:10:33.93
we are now seeing
this come to pass,
00:10:33.96\00:10:36.87
maybe we have not
learned as much as we should,
00:10:36.90\00:10:39.60
and it's a dangerous cause.
00:10:39.63\00:10:41.80
And I think we
need to really make sure
00:10:41.84\00:10:45.37
that we do what we
can with the time we have.
00:10:45.41\00:10:49.94
When I was
barely out of my teens,
00:10:49.98\00:10:52.28
I came under the
powerful influence
00:10:52.31\00:10:54.42
of Handel's Messiah.
00:10:54.45\00:10:56.35
I listened to it
over and over again.
00:10:56.38\00:10:58.32
And those words
taken, of course,
00:10:58.35\00:11:00.09
from the biblical
narrative are powerful,
00:11:00.12\00:11:02.42
where it talks about
Jesus, a Man of sorrows
00:11:02.46\00:11:05.56
and acquainted with grief.
00:11:05.59\00:11:07.06
And then it says
00:11:07.10\00:11:08.43
that He gave His
back to the smiter.
00:11:08.46\00:11:11.23
With that divine example,
00:11:11.27\00:11:13.67
I think it puts
into a little perspective
00:11:13.70\00:11:16.10
the horrors of our human
existence in human history.
00:11:16.14\00:11:20.04
The slavery
00:11:20.08\00:11:21.41
that was even done in
the name of Christianity
00:11:21.44\00:11:24.65
at times,
00:11:24.68\00:11:26.01
the abuses and the
conquest and the murders,
00:11:26.05\00:11:28.52
all of that is
horrible but I believe fades
00:11:28.55\00:11:31.95
into at least its
proper perspective
00:11:31.99\00:11:34.76
when we think of
the divine sacrifice,
00:11:34.79\00:11:37.53
the willingness of
heaven to share in our suffering
00:11:37.56\00:11:40.86
and at the same
time to offer liberty
00:11:40.90\00:11:43.63
and freedom
beyond these constraints.
00:11:43.67\00:11:47.77
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:11:47.80\00:11:50.81