Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI190428A
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00:26 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:28 This is your program designed to bring you news, 00:30 views, updates, analysis, 00:33 and general information on religious liberty in the US 00:36 and around the world. 00:38 My name is Lincoln Steed, 00:40 and I have a very special guest on my program, 00:43 Kingsley Palmer. 00:45 He works for religious liberty in Arizona 00:49 for the Seventh-day Adventist Church, 00:50 and I should say that I edit Liberty magazine 00:53 also for the Seventh-day Adventist Church, 00:54 although Liberty is directed at everybody. 00:58 Very few of our members would even see this magazine, 01:01 which is distributed to thought leaders, 01:03 government leaders, politicians, and so on. 01:08 I'm sure people have figured out by now 01:10 that my accent does betray me, 01:12 and that while I have lived most of my life in the US, 01:14 I have an Australian ancestry and origin. 01:19 And your accent will betray you almost the moment 01:22 you open your mouth. 01:24 You grew up and lived many years in England, 01:27 and now you've lived many more years, 01:29 I think in the United States, and the few in India. 01:33 But let's talk about England, the mother country. 01:37 You know, mother comes to mind a lot 01:39 when you talk about England. 01:40 Although when you use the word mother 01:42 in the modern world, 01:43 you think of Saddam Hussein and the mother of all battles. 01:46 Yes, yes, I remember that one. 01:48 It didn't turn out to be thankfully. 01:51 But there is a mother term in England 01:54 that is used now and then. 01:55 They talk about the English Parliament 01:57 is the mother of all parliaments, 01:59 mother of all legislative bodies. 02:02 So I don't feel embarrassed here 02:04 filming in the United States to sort of reach back there 02:07 because England has been a model 02:10 and a precursor to many things, 02:14 including the United States experiment. 02:20 And I must admit, even as I think about that, 02:23 I have fond memories in Australia 02:25 and in the US of sitting in my car 02:27 on a number of occasions 02:29 and listening with some excitement 02:31 to the debates in Parliament. 02:33 Oh, they're very rigorous. 02:36 Sometimes borderline feud. 02:38 Right, borderline street feud. 02:40 Exactly, exactly. 02:42 You know, on one occasion, someone yelled out to Obama 02:45 during a state of the union address, 02:46 "You lie," and he was pretty much objecting it. 02:48 Yes, definitely. 02:49 But that's normal. 02:50 That would just pass over your head. 02:52 You know, in the Australian Parliament, 02:53 which again is modeled after the mother of all parliaments, 02:56 I saw in a sequence once where the opposition leader 03:01 called the Prime Minister a liar repeatedly, 03:04 and he was asked to retract that 03:07 or he'd be recognized, in other words ejected. 03:10 In the end, he was ejected, 03:11 but he retracted at first and was accepted. 03:16 And then he says, "Yes, I retract," 03:18 he says, "but he's a liar anyway." 03:22 Interesting. 03:23 So that's the style. 03:24 But all of that aside, England, it's has been an interesting, 03:29 I think, experiment in applying, 03:34 you know, freedom principles 03:36 in an increasingly turbulent world. 03:39 What's your take on 03:41 how England has handled some of the stresses? 03:43 In another program, 03:44 you mentioned the Irish question. 03:46 Yes. 03:48 I can't even say it turned out. 03:50 Well, it turned out well, but it seems to have gone away 03:53 because they were afraid that that'd be lumped in 03:55 with the post 9/11 reaction. 03:58 But the underlying issue is never as old. 04:00 But how is the English democracy 04:02 managed to deal with so many competing issues, 04:07 not least of which religious conflicts 04:10 through the ages in England? 04:12 Well, I think... 04:13 The church of England, the singular church, 04:16 but it's not been that simple, has it ever? 04:18 No, it hasn't. 04:20 And I think part of that if I can call it an experiment, 04:23 to me, in fact the parliament's been 04:25 in operation for close to 1,000 years, 04:29 and has the demographics in Britain has changed, 04:34 so as the view of the world, the Commonwealth 04:36 or what used to be form a common... 04:38 Colonial dominions, if I may use that term. 04:44 The British had to adjust themselves through that, 04:47 the changing and in particularly 04:49 with respect to immigration, 04:51 you know, after the Second World War, 04:53 you know that you had the Marshall Plan here 04:56 to rebuild Britain. 04:58 And that meant people from former colonies 05:01 coming to Britain, residing there, 05:03 that's how I got there. 05:06 I'm the son of immigrants, and therefore, 05:08 what they brought to the table 05:10 in order to rebuild the infrastructure 05:14 of the United Kingdom, 05:15 they brought their experiences, 05:17 they brought what they understood 05:19 to be important to them and so... 05:21 Well, you're ready to getting it. 05:22 I was setting you up. 05:23 You are getting it, what I really think 05:25 is the part of the secret of the British system. 05:28 It's ultimately an inclusion 05:30 even though the societal structure in England 05:34 was very stratified, and to this day, 05:38 I think they still have aristocratic... 05:39 Well, you know, you got class system, they do, 05:42 that I think, you know, 05:43 as successive generations have come along, 05:46 so has change. 05:48 And adaptability is important. 05:52 If I may look across the pond, as they often say, 05:55 here, I don't know 05:58 that it's been embraced the same way. 06:04 If anything extremely, it has become almost untenable 06:11 in terms of, okay, you open the doors, 06:15 you invite people to come in, and let's face it, 06:19 we talk about the cosmopolitan melting pot. 06:22 It shouldn't be a melting pot. 06:24 We used to use that term back home. 06:26 No, it needs to be a salad. 06:28 In other words, if you've got people, 06:30 we have the Church of England, right? 06:32 You have many different churches there, 06:34 Birmingham, you know, you're either one of two camps. 06:37 You either Protestant or evangelical 06:40 or you're Roman Catholic or what have you, 06:42 and then in between, you've got all these different groups. 06:45 And adaptability is important, and being open-minded. 06:49 That's one thing I do like about my development, 06:54 my growth at the same time, 06:59 but you don't find that here, 07:01 and people have resisted for it. 07:02 You've seen parliament, you've seen, 07:05 an honorable noble gentleman, he's got the floor. 07:08 You say honorable, 07:09 but dishonorable things are exchanged. 07:12 But yet, they can find common ground 07:16 for the good of everybody. 07:18 Now it's not perfect. 07:20 Here, it's pretty different 07:23 in terms of your political affiliation. 07:28 It's sometimes attached to what you believe 07:32 and depending on which side of the aisle, 07:33 whether you're left, right or center somewhere. 07:37 That guides and influences 07:39 how you see other people even in a public setting. 07:43 That's worth mentioning that 07:45 there was a big political debate 07:48 in the early American experiment about parties. 07:52 They didn't have parties at the very beginning. 07:55 And not by accident, they had rejected the parties, 07:58 Whigs and Tories system of England 08:00 because they saw some issues there. 08:03 And it's worth remembering. 08:04 While it works pretty well at the moment, 08:06 there's been some dangerous polarizations 08:09 in the English system. 08:11 And I love history, and, you know, 08:15 favorite part of my history of England was the period 08:18 with the Puritans and the civil war, 08:20 and the protectorate and so on, politics got toxic then. 08:25 Of course, it became a republic 08:27 for a short space of time under Cromwell, 08:29 but reverted back to what it was. 08:31 But I think at the moment, it's working quite well, 08:34 given the dysfunctional world we live in. 08:37 And you're right, 08:39 in the US, which is heading rapidly 08:41 toward dysfunction on many levels, 08:44 but particularly with the religious dynamic behind it, 08:48 wouldn't hurt to take a leaf 08:50 from what England has gained by experience, 08:53 hard experience often. 08:55 Well, again, 08:56 with the arrival of people from around the world 09:02 into the country, 09:05 and there's had to be a level of okay, 09:09 acceptance, understanding, open-mindedness. 09:14 I was raised in it. 09:15 It wasn't perfect. 09:17 Immigrants were not always treated 09:18 as well as they should have been. 09:21 But now successive generations 09:23 have been born and raised there, 09:25 brought into the idea, 09:27 this is the country which you are now a part of, 09:31 and have moved up the ladder as it were 09:36 to places which grandparents would never have dreamed 09:39 could have happened. 09:40 And so the dialogue has had to change. 09:43 The viewpoints have had to change. 09:45 And let's not even talk about 09:46 the entrance into the European community 09:47 because that's a whole another story. 09:49 Or the exit. 09:50 Or the exit or the Brexit. 09:52 But they've had to have an open-mind, right? 09:56 And to keep the peace, 09:59 and it's probably less class stratified 10:04 now than it ever was. 10:06 And it's been healthy. 10:08 And we and I can sit down and talk 10:11 and have a conversation about so many different things, 10:14 and yet respect. 10:15 We have a Muslim mayor. 10:18 Think about having that here in the United States. 10:21 You know, this is the Congress, 10:24 the last elections that they had, you know, for... 10:29 Back in November, 10:31 you've seen the diversified House of Representatives 10:35 and the more stratified, you know, Senate. 10:40 So adaptability, open-mindedness. 10:45 We've learned, we haven't got there yet. 10:47 And I say we going across the pond 10:51 have had to be adaptable. 10:52 And I think it bodes well in terms of engaging. 10:56 I think it bodes well in terms of having an open mind 11:00 and understanding, and a degree of acceptance 11:03 or choosing to agree to disagree. 11:05 You know, I'm pursuing this for good reason. 11:08 It seems to me at the moment, 11:10 the US as much of the rest of the world, 11:12 but in particular, 11:14 the US is going through a very stressful period, 11:16 stresses from immigration, 11:18 finance, internal political issues, 11:22 polarization at the parties, and so on. 11:25 But it's not reacting well, 11:28 and I'm afraid the lashing out is going to get toxic, 11:31 and it should learn a lesson from other things 11:34 that humans have gone through, and in particular, 11:36 the England that had an empire and it's gone, 11:40 but it turned out to be a fairly benign, 11:44 accommodating country. 11:46 You know, it's not by accident 11:48 that the masters of these refugees 11:51 that flooded Europe recently 11:53 were trying to get through the tunnel. 11:54 Even once they got to Europe, 11:55 they still trying to get through the channel to England, 11:58 which connects to Brexit, 12:01 you know, we've seen as an existential threat. 12:03 Yeah, we still buy those whose minds are so close 12:09 to what makes Britain great, right? 12:13 And I'd be careful how I phrase that. 12:15 But I'm speaking from across the perspective, 12:17 across the point, 12:19 what has made Great Britain as we know it, 12:22 and it's not perfect, 12:23 and I can tell you many, many stories 12:26 about its imperfections is the open-mindedness. 12:30 What you learn when you travel? 12:32 So when you, people come to the country in whatever way, 12:36 shape or fashion they get there, 12:38 you have an understanding. 12:39 And I think the educational system has 12:41 a lot to do with it as well in terms of it. 12:44 Let me really throw a wrench in, 12:46 we're nearly the break, but we can get started. 12:52 Part of the dislocation in the US at the moment 12:54 is a mixture of politics and religion. 13:00 Those are the two topics 13:01 just supposedly don't bring up normally, 13:03 but they characterize this program 13:05 or at least commentary on... 13:08 But this is not a political program, 13:09 but we are always talking about 13:11 things that have political ramifications or in politics, 13:15 and religion is right in there. 13:19 We've just extolled England for relative success, 13:22 but what's the role of religion 13:24 in English society and governance? 13:26 Well, you ask any Brit regardless of stripe, 13:31 and they will tell you, "That's a private matter. 13:34 That's a personal matter. 13:35 We don't need to discuss that, we live and let live." 13:39 We don't make legislation based upon religious attitudes 13:44 or perceptions of what is, 13:45 you know, acceptable or not acceptable. 13:48 So when did it become private? How did it become private? 13:50 I know that attitude, 13:51 and I didn't think you'd say that so simply, 13:53 but I know that that's. 13:56 In Australia, the same, that's what's thought. 13:58 And it isn't a private matter per se, 14:00 but it shouldn't be a public matter 14:02 as far as government 14:05 to get involved in projecting religious values 14:10 and dictates to the whole. 14:12 No, and that's... 14:13 And, of course, we have the first amendment designed 14:15 to protect that, but that's disputed 14:17 in the US today. 14:18 We need to take a break. 14:20 So stay with us. 14:21 And we will delve further 14:23 into this discussion of religion and politics, 14:26 and how it's operating on either side of a great pond. |
Revised 2019-04-19