Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI190427B
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00:04 Welcome back from our break.
00:06 And before the break with guest, Kingsley Palmer, 00:09 we were getting... 00:11 I was gonna say philosophical, but biblical 00:12 because we were relating the role of Jesus 00:16 in His earthly ministry, 00:17 which is explained in the New Testament. 00:20 Right. 00:22 How He interacted with people, and applying that 00:24 to the principle of religious liberty in general. 00:27 Right. 00:28 And jumping off from our church's emphasis 00:31 on public affairs. 00:33 You know, Christianity is all to do with public affairs, 00:37 publicly witnessing. 00:38 Oh, you look at the Old Testament, 00:40 what was God trying to do, right? 00:43 From the call of Abraham 00:46 to the progression. 00:47 You know, calling him out, right? 00:50 Not to stay within the confines of what He believed, 00:54 but to share that with other people 00:55 all through the Old Testament. 00:57 And when, you know, as we already know 01:01 that when the Hebrew nation came out of Egypt, 01:04 He wanted them to be a light to the world 01:06 even though they spent 40 years in the wilderness. 01:09 The gospel had to be preached, the gospel had to be lived. 01:13 God wanted to show him, 01:15 have a model group of individuals 01:17 who were not perfect, 01:18 but would do His will with respect 01:20 to the people that are sacred. 01:22 Well, in that era, they were in the come out, 01:25 the leaving phase in the New Testament, 01:28 they were in the going phase, going back. 01:30 Right. 01:31 It's almost like they regressed in a sense, yeah. 01:33 Yeah. 01:36 Your point is correct, but I think as a model, 01:40 yes, there were problems, 01:41 and they were drawn out of a group. 01:43 But really, once they were out and distinct, 01:46 and had a message, then you have to go back. 01:48 Right. 01:49 And I hope, 01:52 our church, Seventh-day Adventist Church, 01:56 as all Christian and indeed, 01:57 all religious groups doesn't just keep to itself, 02:00 it has to go and interact and be part of the whole. 02:06 Now there's a famous poem by, 02:09 you know, "No man is an island." 02:12 I'm sure you know the poem. 02:14 But, you know, no man is an island, 02:15 we're all part of the continent. 02:19 And in the religious sense, very much so, 02:21 we're part of the universe. 02:23 Well, that sounds like new age poem, 02:26 you know, you are a part of the universe. 02:29 Well, Rod McKuen, wasn't it? 02:31 God bless him. 02:33 I'm old enough to remember that, he's gone. 02:34 That's him. 02:35 But, you know, yeah, we are part of a human... 02:38 Yeah, we are part of a human family 02:43 representing a God who wants to engage. 02:46 I keep on going back to that. 02:47 We're representing a God 02:49 who wants to have a relationship with all people. 02:51 The Bible says that 02:53 He sends the rain and the sun on the just and the unjust. 02:56 And it is interesting that 02:57 He calls people out of their comfort zones, 03:00 if you go from Abraham, all the way down 03:02 to the Old Testament into the New Testament, 03:06 God's always stepping out, 03:07 calling people to come to Him, 03:09 to have a relationship with Him, 03:11 regardless of what their beliefs were, 03:12 what their values might have been. 03:16 And oftentimes in confrontation or in conflict 03:20 for what He wanted. 03:21 And this is why the public affairs 03:24 from we have seen it, 03:25 you know, Micah 6:8, you know. 03:28 Listen, don't give Me 03:30 these sacrifices and things like this, 03:31 here's what I want you to do. 03:33 Here's what I want you to do 03:38 what is right, to walk with Me, right? 03:42 And to engage other people. 03:44 And particularly when we're strangers. 03:45 What do you say, 03:46 what does the Lord require of you to do justice? 03:48 Indeed to, just listen, love, mercy. 03:49 In love, mercy and walk with all men, work with all men. 03:51 Exactly. 03:53 And so that is what we supposed to do. 03:55 It's interesting that with The Ten Commandments, 03:58 if I can just pull on that for minute, 04:00 the first four of those commandments 04:04 have to do with the God's relationship 04:06 our relationship and responsibility to God. 04:09 The last six focuses on the engagement piece. 04:12 How do you live with these? 04:14 How do you treat people, 04:16 you know, and Adventist says, you know how it is. 04:19 We get up in church and it says, 04:22 "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy." 04:24 And we go on and then, "Six day shall thou labor." 04:27 And then it ends, 04:28 "Thou, nor their son nor their daughter, 04:30 nor their ox and their cattle, 04:32 nor thy stranger that is within our gate." 04:36 Well, we could have a whole program on that one because... 04:38 On that one point alone. 04:39 Yes, amen. 04:41 Because that is very good instruction 04:44 to a nation that was ruled as a theocracy. 04:48 I don't know how you can apply that in the modern world 04:51 with the truest principle of religious liberty. 04:55 If I have a stranger within my gate, 04:58 and he's not a Christian either, 05:00 I can't easily require him to keep my day or my religion. 05:06 But I think the way application 05:08 I would have is we have an obligation to tell them 05:10 why this is now a holy day. 05:12 They're not to be ignored, 05:14 they would be included if they're willing. 05:15 Right, and it's always a choice. 05:17 You have to quote the Quran 05:19 which at the time seems to deny itself. 05:21 The Quran says, "No compulsion in religion." 05:23 And that's truly a biblical principle too. 05:27 It's kind of interesting that you mentioned the Quran. 05:31 Sometimes we as Christians have got to a place 05:35 where our interpretation or understanding of how, 05:39 what we do as a faith keeping, 05:42 God serving group of people, 05:46 we can be compartmentalized on the one hand. 05:49 In other words, if you're within my gate, 05:51 just use the expression, 05:53 it means that I should demonstrate by how I behave 05:56 and how I live 05:57 the positive elements 06:00 of what I believe in reflection of God. 06:03 But we can tend to, if we're not very careful, 06:06 become so close-minded, 06:08 and even judgmental to the point 06:10 where we ostracize people 06:14 who are not of the same belief system. 06:16 We saw that with the Spanish Inquisition, 06:18 we see Christianity hasn't always been 06:22 clean and open-minded, and objective as it should. 06:24 That's true, you know, I would broaden it. 06:27 Since religion is such an important thing for people. 06:31 Particularly, you're getting it more into the modern era, 06:34 religion is used to create walls, 06:37 to separate one group from another. 06:40 And at times of stress, 06:42 since you can easily put the other group as evil 06:45 or something rather sinister, 06:48 then that can be even violence. 06:50 It's not unique to Christianity. 06:53 At the moment, 06:55 we're seeing more of this phenomenon, 06:57 I think, with Islamic communities. 07:00 And a lot of people try to dodge it. 07:02 It's real, 07:04 but, of course, it can happen with any group. 07:06 And in India, 07:07 and I know you worked in India for a while. 07:09 You know, Hindu nationalists 07:11 are indulging in a lot of violence 07:14 that I don't think it's defensible, 07:15 but it is explainable. 07:17 They're feeling threatened. 07:18 And the sense of their religious 07:20 and political other is so overwhelming 07:22 that they lash out. 07:24 So, you know, dialogue between faith groups, 07:28 I think is profitable not to explain 07:31 away the differences, it might even sharpen them, 07:34 but it will humanize the communities 07:37 and create a bridge and a dialogue 07:39 back to the public affairs as we're talking about. 07:42 And I'm glad you mentioned that because a public of... 07:45 What public affairs does, 07:46 and I'll give you an example. 07:48 As a pastor, 07:50 whichever community you go into, 07:52 you're going to see a variation of different belief systems, 07:55 different churches, most of what have you. 07:58 The thing is, if you have an open-mind... 08:01 I'll go back to the umbrella, you know. 08:04 Find the common things that you can work with, 08:07 you know, in regardless of the divergence 08:11 in terms of the, what you believe. 08:13 Find those common human 08:18 things that pull people together. 08:21 "Blessed are the peacemakers, 08:22 for they shall be called the children of God." 08:25 And so you go, 08:27 you approach other faith groups with an open mind, 08:31 and with an interest. 08:32 I mean, you're going to be who you are, 08:34 they're going to be who they are, 08:36 but find the common ground. 08:38 Those things that affect everybody. 08:40 Well, the common ground is humanity, 08:42 and we're all children of God 08:46 that we perhaps see differently, 08:48 but we recognize a divine element 08:50 when we're talking in the faith community, at least. 08:52 Yes. 08:54 Yeah, now this is very profitable 08:56 for us to do this. 08:58 He allows the foundation of basic human rights, 09:02 you know, how I interpret that 09:04 through the lens of my experience, 09:05 and yours maybe a little different. 09:07 And you mentioned India, I haven't lived there. 09:09 Yes, I did see that happening. 09:12 And then it became politicized. 09:14 The Hindus on the one hand, and you have other religions, 09:19 not much different from what we have in the West, 09:22 you know, in the western part of the world. 09:24 You mean, the friction between the... 09:26 The friction, I lived in Britain during the time 09:29 when the Irish Republic Army, and, you know that the IRA, 09:35 and the bombings and everything like that. 09:38 It was politically motivated. 09:40 But it was a time when the Roman Catholic Church 09:42 and Protestants, 09:44 you know, from centuries back had their differences. 09:47 And I clearly remember what that thing... 09:49 Very violent time, remember the... 09:51 It was extremely violent. 09:52 Once the host guards were bombed 09:53 on the way back from Buckingham Palace. 09:55 Yes, yes, I'm glad you mentioned that 09:57 because I was living in London 09:59 at the time when the bombings were going on. 10:02 People were afraid, the conflict began to escalate. 10:07 And I can recall, 10:08 going into train stations and worrying about, 10:12 you know, what would happen next. 10:15 You look at a trash can 10:17 and you think there could be something in it. 10:18 It was a very unsettling time 10:20 because religious divides 10:24 and issues that have not been resolved, 10:27 you know, created this very unsettling, 10:30 unsafe atmosphere. 10:32 And that it's not something I would want to go back to. 10:36 One of the special rewards 10:37 of working with public affairs and religious liberty 10:40 for me has been meeting some of these public officials. 10:44 And one that I'll never forget 10:46 was actually before 10:47 I was working with Liberty Magazine. 10:49 I was working with the drug education journal 10:51 for our church. 10:53 And I met at my request, 10:55 with certain general 10:57 who had been one of the top generals 10:59 in the first Iraq war. 11:02 I won't name him, but he was very well-known. 11:05 And we spoke for a long time, I shared my faith. 11:08 To me, it's unavoidable, 11:10 necessary when you're meeting with these people. 11:12 And we talked about it, 11:14 and he said he owed his life 11:15 to a Seventh-day Adventist cause men 11:16 who had saved his life in Vietnam. 11:19 And then after explaining that he had to go. 11:21 Half an hour after the allotted time, 11:23 and I'll never forget him walking down the hall, 11:26 calling out to me several times, 11:28 "We believe what you are doing, we believe what you're doing. 11:31 Keep doing it." 11:33 That is the reward that we often get. 11:37 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2019-04-15