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Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI190427A
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00:27 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:28 This is the program bringing you news, views, 00:31 discussion, analysis, and up-to-date information 00:34 on religious liberty in the US and around the world. 00:38 My name is Lincoln Steed, 00:39 and I'm editor of Liberty Magazine 00:42 and the host of this program. 00:44 And my guest on this program is Kingsley Palmer. 00:47 Welcome, Kingsley. Thank you. 00:48 And for the viewers' information, 00:52 you're Religious Liberty Director 00:54 for the Seventh-day Adventist Church in Arizona. 00:57 That's correct. In the US. 00:58 That's right. 00:59 So let's start from that point of view. 01:04 Some of our viewers may not even know 01:05 even after hearing me 01:07 go on and on about religious liberty 01:08 that within our context, 01:10 we combine what we call public affairs 01:13 and religious liberty. 01:15 Right. 01:16 That's... 01:17 Explain that, how do you see the difference 01:19 or the conjunction of those two aspects? 01:22 Well, when we talk about public affairs, 01:24 we're talking about having an interest 01:27 in the community 01:28 with respect to freedom of expression of religion, 01:33 and what that looks like 01:35 in terms of how we, as a church, 01:39 you know, engage in the public discourse 01:43 on religious liberty freedoms. 01:46 And so when we talk about public affairs, 01:49 we're talking about engagement, 01:50 we're talking about involvement, 01:52 you know, with the remit to make sure 01:55 that we have a balanced view 02:00 and application of how 02:02 religious public affairs should work. 02:04 So public affairs, as the name says, it's public, 02:07 it's outreach with the concept of religious liberty. 02:10 I think it's a little bit more than that 02:12 or on a different angle. 02:14 I think it intersects also with public relations 02:18 for the church 02:20 which you would expect any group, 02:23 let alone the church to do. 02:26 But I think it works very well 02:27 when you combine the religious liberty emphasis 02:30 with this outreach, 02:32 this public relations on behalf of this particular subset 02:36 of Christianity Seventh-day Adventistism. 02:37 Right. Yes, I totally agree. 02:40 And I think the prime example of that was Jesus, okay? 02:45 Elaborate in the Bible, right? 02:46 He was very much... 02:48 Yes, in the Bible, Jesus spent most of His time engaging, 02:51 building relationships, connections with people 02:54 of all different shapes, and sizes, 02:56 and different persuasions. 02:59 And most of His time was spent doing that. 03:04 And He really, 03:06 I think, was the best example of engaging people, 03:10 meeting their needs as He did, 03:13 and also at the same time, 03:16 giving counsel, representing His Father 03:18 who's in heaven, 03:20 and also just sort of being out there 03:25 showing the character of God. 03:26 No, I think few words will take it, 03:28 you know, anyone that reads the Bible carefully, 03:30 it will be a little troubled, 03:31 as Jesus disciples were 03:33 when He made some curious statements 03:36 about the non Jews that were in contact with Him, 03:40 remember, you know? 03:42 He gave the idea that the woman... 03:45 What it is? 03:46 The tension, you know, what have I got to do with you, 03:48 you know, I've come just to the Jews. 03:50 She said something to the effect 03:52 if willing even the crumbs fall off the table. 03:54 Yes, as definition would. 03:55 Yeah. 03:57 So yes, I think there's no question 03:59 in the Bible account of Jesus 04:02 for theological reasons. 04:03 He was to come particularly to Israel to stir them 04:06 in their ministry. 04:07 But their ministry that He was encouraging them 04:09 on clearly was to change the world. 04:14 They'd forgotten that they, 04:15 you know, they were very self contained. 04:17 And so we do take a cue from Jesus that, 04:22 you know, He had a concern for humanity. 04:23 That was His mission. 04:25 And we have to exemplify that showing heaven's concern. 04:29 So in my understanding, 04:33 while we do have public relations, 04:34 it should not be self serving to promote ourselves 04:38 as us as individuals or even our structure. 04:42 It's what we represent. 04:43 We're promoting that 04:44 and explaining it rather than just doing it. 04:49 Right, we're explaining it. 04:50 And like I said, it is the engagement part. 04:56 We have to be very careful because Israel or the Jews, 05:00 who Jesus was dealing with at that particular time 05:03 almost became insulated. 05:05 It was as if, "We are the special people, 05:07 we have special favor," 05:09 and therefore anything outside of that context... 05:11 Well, that's what I was hinting at, yeah. 05:13 Yes. And that wasn't the design. 05:15 And so God was correcting the people 05:18 that have been charged with being a holy nation 05:20 and a priestly nation to administer good things 05:24 to the rest of the world. 05:25 Right. 05:26 And Adventism, Christianity, in the largest sense, 05:30 that it has no reason to be 05:33 unless it's doing the same thing, 05:34 reaching out, and being a light, 05:37 being a positive influence in the world. 05:39 Now in the modern world, 05:40 you know, we have to recognize 05:42 there are Buddhists and Hindus, and atheists of all stripes. 05:47 You know, we're not the only game in town, 05:49 but still in relating to all of those, 05:51 we can fulfill the same function, 05:53 can't we of working for their good. 05:56 And on religious liberty, 05:58 of course, we empower them in their belief, 06:01 and argue on their behalf. 06:03 And if necessary, 06:05 suffer consequence in our defense of their faith, 06:08 that very few Adventists, 06:11 for example, in our own company quite understand this. 06:13 Yes. 06:15 And I think, just as the people in the day 06:18 when Jesus was alive, had lost focus, 06:21 lost their understanding 06:22 of representing the character of God, 06:25 which is what Jesus embodied, and touching people, 06:30 meeting them where they were irrespective... 06:33 You used the example of this Syrophoenician woman, 06:36 the Roman centurion, for example, 06:39 you know, who Jesus says, listen. 06:42 He says, "You don't need to come to My house, 06:45 just speak the word." 06:47 So He was civically engaged 06:50 in putting the faith of God, the human faith. 06:51 Roman sent that 06:53 because Jews wouldn't go to his house. 06:54 Well, of course, they wouldn't. 06:55 And that was part of the problem. 06:57 Yeah. 06:58 They had become very compartmentalized 06:59 in terms of their religion. 07:01 And unfortunately, 07:04 were looked upon not very favorably 07:07 by everybody else, you know. 07:10 There was a statement made by some... 07:12 I think it was a Roman historian 07:14 or some public figure of that era 07:18 that no group were more distinguished by their, 07:25 for their despise... 07:26 For so despising the ancient Gods as the Jews. 07:30 Now, on one level, great. 07:32 You know, they knew the true God. 07:34 But I don't think it's good psychology 07:38 and ultimately good for any human being 07:41 for one group to look down on what the others stand for 07:44 or what they believe. 07:45 No. 07:47 And we can't afford to do that. 07:48 There are real differences. 07:50 And I don't know about you, 07:51 but I love debating with other faiths 07:54 and other viewpoints 07:56 because you learn a lot from it. 07:57 And plus you sort of extract their view, 07:59 and I can challenge them. 08:00 But that doesn't mean that I question should... 08:03 And I hope I don't, question for one minute. 08:06 They're right unnecessarily in believing something 08:08 that I find maybe even crazy. 08:12 Well, when we think about... 08:13 You have to respect that. 08:15 You look at the Seventh-day Adventist Church, 08:16 it comprises of multitudes of people 08:20 coming from different economic, cultural. 08:22 How many are we in the world now? 08:24 It's something like 20 million. Twenty million. 08:26 And that's 20 million viewpoints, 08:28 that's 20 million attitudes, 08:30 that's 20 million different experiences 08:33 coming together under the banner of a truth. 08:36 And they bring that experience to the table. 08:39 So we have to be very pragmatic, 08:42 we have to be open-minded in how we approach. 08:46 I think we have common beliefs 08:48 as any other religious organization would have, 08:51 but then those beliefs are codified 08:54 in a group of policies or biblical principles 09:00 that hold us together, but at the same time, 09:02 allows for a diversity of thought, 09:05 diversity of practice. 09:06 But not just within our church. 09:08 We have to allow for... No, from outside, outside. 09:11 Definitely. 09:12 And I think part of allowing is to be open to dialoguing 09:16 and comprehending to some degree of the beliefs. 09:21 And human things generally, I think, in the modern era, 09:24 are even more lacking of that than they used to be. 09:27 They have a saying in Britain, and it goes like this. 09:30 "Mind's a likely..." Where you grew up, right? 09:32 Where I grew up. 09:33 Your accent's betraying you. 09:35 Well, of course, I'm not hiding it. 09:37 Minds are like umbrellas, 09:38 not much good unless they're open. 09:40 Yeah, that's a good one. 09:42 And we have to be very careful 09:44 that we don't keep the umbrella closed. 09:46 But we broaden our thinking, 09:51 strong in principles that we believe in, 09:54 but at the same time, 09:55 you can't get to know someone 09:56 unless you spend time with them. 09:58 Right. 09:59 Well, you know, 10:01 just on something that's going on right now, 10:02 since 9/11, at least, 10:04 the US and I think the larger Western world, 10:07 particularly is suddenly trying to discover about Islam. 10:14 But very seldom though I come across people 10:16 that have read the Quran. 10:19 Well, I think 10:21 not necessarily read and studied, 10:23 but I think we should be somewhat familiar 10:25 with other systems. 10:26 But primarily, before we even do that, 10:29 we should read our own. 10:31 When you have someone that hasn't read the Bible, 10:34 hasn't read the Quran, 10:35 what sort of a discussion could you have? 10:40 Even with good intentions 10:42 that easily goes towards sort of polemical or partisan 10:46 backwards and forwards, and nobody's helped by it. 10:48 And we've seen that. 10:50 We have seen the ostracizing, we have seen the dehumanizing, 10:55 the politicizing of principles 10:58 that we believe in 10:59 because we do not engage to find that other person's... 11:04 To listen to that person's story. 11:05 And, you know, in engagement, 11:07 you might not find encouraging information 11:11 from the other side, but it'll be correct. 11:14 You know, a lot of the dialogue that's going on now, 11:16 I think, as I said, very often from people 11:19 that are not truly informed, but it's dialogue, at least. 11:21 It's designed to sort of create a neutral commonality. 11:28 And so uncomfortable facts 11:30 about beliefs or ideals of a group, 11:33 religious or otherwise are ignored, 11:35 and then the commonality 11:36 and then everything's hunky-dory. 11:39 But I think in religious liberty, 11:41 that's not necessary. 11:43 Once you have an upfront acceptance 11:45 that we're all creatures of Creator God. 11:49 And the US Constitution 11:50 in its own pseudo pagan way recognizes that, 11:53 you know, nature and nature's God. 11:58 But once you accept that, 12:00 then there should be a charity toward the other person. 12:04 And that charity would mean 12:06 when you discover that their views are radically, 12:09 not so much opposed, 12:10 but radically different from yours, 12:12 then that's what it is. 12:14 It's not necessarily 12:15 that they not be radically different for you 12:17 to be agreeable with them. 12:18 Right. 12:19 And I think, if you can find the commonalities, 12:23 you know, you should have a definite interest that 12:26 in engaging in that person. 12:28 As I said before, you want to listen to them. 12:31 And you also want to learn. 12:32 You lose nothing by learning, you lose nothing by listening. 12:37 Well, you gain a lot more, you know, I suppose. 12:38 Well, you do. 12:40 And I mean, it's got to be interactive. 12:41 That's why I believe Jesus epitomizes 12:45 that in terms of listening to the stories. 12:48 He listened to the Syrophoenician woman, 12:50 He listened to the woman at the well, 12:52 He listened to the Roman centurion, 12:54 He did a lot of listening, and His responses were, 12:58 "Well, I do represent God as the Father. 13:02 I am His son. 13:03 I do represent... I am also Jewish. 13:06 But I don't mind..." 13:07 Well, He said He was the Son of God. 13:09 Most times, He said He was the Son of God. 13:10 Son of God, see it, Son of man. 13:11 So He emphasized to come in humanity. 13:13 Exactly. 13:14 He built that initial connection. 13:15 And He stepped out of the frame 13:18 or the restrictions of what we're expected of Him 13:22 in order to engage with human beings 13:24 regardless of where they came from. 13:25 Well, yeah, it's worth remembering on Christ, 13:27 the biggest attack made against Him by enemies 13:30 within His own people 13:32 were that He was the friend 13:34 and companion of sinners and publicans, 13:36 in other words, drunkards and revelers, 13:40 you know, the low life of society. 13:42 And I think they were right. 13:45 But that's that... 13:46 Not that He was one of them, 13:47 but Jesus would associate with anybody 13:51 that He could get close to 13:52 because He wanted to communicate 13:54 because of the principles of heaven. 13:56 But just as a human being, I think He wanted to connect. 13:59 You know, I also... 14:01 And here's the other interesting thing, 14:03 which is risky. 14:05 And that's what I love about Jesus 14:07 is the fact that He was here 14:10 to remind the people of His day, 14:14 what their true calling was, and that was to be sought. 14:17 That was to permeate. 14:19 That was to... You can't... 14:20 If salt stays in the bottle, it's no use. 14:23 So He did that. 14:25 Well, you used wonderful word, pictures, and imagery 14:27 that indicated great spiritual truth. 14:30 Stay with us. 14:31 We'll be back in a short while to continue this discussion. 14:35 Thank you. |
Revised 2019-04-15