Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the program
bringing you news, views,
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discussion, analysis,
and up-to-date information
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on religious liberty in
the US and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
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and I'm editor
of Liberty Magazine
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and the host of this program.
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And my guest on this
program is Kingsley Palmer.
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Welcome, Kingsley. Thank you.
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And for the
viewers' information,
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you're
Religious Liberty Director
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for the Seventh-day
Adventist Church in Arizona.
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That's correct. In the US.
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That's right.
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So let's start
from that point of view.
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Some of our
viewers may not even know
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even after hearing me
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go on and on
about religious liberty
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that within our context,
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we combine what we
call public affairs
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and religious liberty.
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Right.
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That's...
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Explain that, how do
you see the difference
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or the conjunction
of those two aspects?
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Well, when we talk
about public affairs,
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we're talking
about having an interest
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in the community
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with respect to freedom
of expression of religion,
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and what that looks like
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in terms of how we, as a church,
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you know, engage in
the public discourse
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on religious liberty freedoms.
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And so when we talk
about public affairs,
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we're talking about engagement,
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we're talking about involvement,
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you know, with
the remit to make sure
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that we have a balanced view
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and application of how
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religious public
affairs should work.
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So public affairs, as
the name says, it's public,
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it's outreach with the
concept of religious liberty.
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I think it's a
little bit more than that
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or on a different angle.
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I think it intersects
also with public relations
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for the church
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which you would
expect any group,
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let alone the church to do.
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But I think it works very well
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when you combine the
religious liberty emphasis
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with this outreach,
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this public relations on
behalf of this particular subset
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of Christianity
Seventh-day Adventistism.
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Right. Yes, I totally agree.
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And I think the prime
example of that was Jesus, okay?
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Elaborate in the Bible, right?
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He was very much...
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Yes, in the Bible, Jesus
spent most of His time engaging,
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building relationships,
connections with people
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of all different
shapes, and sizes,
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and different persuasions.
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And most of His time
was spent doing that.
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And He really,
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I think, was the best
example of engaging people,
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meeting their needs as He did,
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and also at the same time,
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giving counsel,
representing His Father
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who's in heaven,
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and also just
sort of being out there
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showing the character of God.
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No, I think few
words will take it,
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you know, anyone that
reads the Bible carefully,
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it will be a little troubled,
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as Jesus disciples were
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when He made some
curious statements
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about the non Jews that
were in contact with Him,
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remember, you know?
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He gave the idea
that the woman...
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What it is?
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The tension, you know,
what have I got to do with you,
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you know, I've
come just to the Jews.
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She said something to the effect
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if willing even the
crumbs fall off the table.
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Yes, as definition would.
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Yeah.
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So yes, I think
there's no question
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in the Bible account of Jesus
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for theological reasons.
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He was to come particularly
to Israel to stir them
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in their ministry.
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But their ministry
that He was encouraging them
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on clearly was
to change the world.
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They'd forgotten that they,
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you know, they were
very self contained.
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And so we do take a
cue from Jesus that,
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you know, He had a
concern for humanity.
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That was His mission.
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And we have to exemplify
that showing heaven's concern.
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So in my understanding,
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while we do have
public relations,
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it should not be self
serving to promote ourselves
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as us as individuals
or even our structure.
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It's what we represent.
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We're promoting that
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and explaining it
rather than just doing it.
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Right, we're explaining it.
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And like I said, it
is the engagement part.
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We have to be very careful
because Israel or the Jews,
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who Jesus was dealing
with at that particular time
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almost became insulated.
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It was as if, "We
are the special people,
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we have special favor,"
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and therefore anything
outside of that context...
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Well, that's what I
was hinting at, yeah.
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Yes. And that wasn't the design.
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And so God was
correcting the people
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that have been charged
with being a holy nation
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and a priestly nation
to administer good things
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to the rest of the world.
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Right.
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And Adventism, Christianity,
in the largest sense,
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that it has no reason to be
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unless it's
doing the same thing,
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reaching out, and being a light,
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being a positive
influence in the world.
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Now in the modern world,
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you know, we have to recognize
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there are Buddhists and Hindus,
and atheists of all stripes.
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You know, we're not
the only game in town,
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but still in
relating to all of those,
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we can fulfill
the same function,
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can't we of
working for their good.
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And on religious liberty,
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of course, we
empower them in their belief,
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and argue on their behalf.
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And if necessary,
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suffer consequence in
our defense of their faith,
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that very few Adventists,
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for example, in our own
company quite understand this.
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Yes.
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And I think, just as
the people in the day
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when Jesus was
alive, had lost focus,
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lost their understanding
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of representing
the character of God,
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which is what Jesus
embodied, and touching people,
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meeting them where
they were irrespective...
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You used the example of
this Syrophoenician woman,
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the Roman
centurion, for example,
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you know, who
Jesus says, listen.
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He says, "You don't
need to come to My house,
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just speak the word."
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So He was civically engaged
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in putting the faith
of God, the human faith.
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Roman sent that
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because Jews
wouldn't go to his house.
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Well, of course, they wouldn't.
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And that was
part of the problem.
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Yeah.
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They had become
very compartmentalized
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in terms of their religion.
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And unfortunately,
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were looked upon
not very favorably
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by everybody else, you know.
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There was a
statement made by some...
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I think it was a Roman historian
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or some public
figure of that era
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that no group were
more distinguished by their,
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for their despise...
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For so despising the
ancient Gods as the Jews.
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Now, on one level, great.
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You know, they
knew the true God.
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But I don't think
it's good psychology
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and ultimately
good for any human being
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for one group to look down
on what the others stand for
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or what they believe.
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No.
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And we can't afford to do that.
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There are real differences.
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And I don't know about you,
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but I love
debating with other faiths
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and other viewpoints
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because you learn a lot from it.
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And plus you sort
of extract their view,
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and I can challenge them.
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But that doesn't mean
that I question should...
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And I hope I don't,
question for one minute.
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They're right unnecessarily
in believing something
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that I find maybe even crazy.
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Well, when we think about...
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You have to respect that.
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You look at the
Seventh-day Adventist Church,
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it comprises of
multitudes of people
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coming from
different economic, cultural.
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How many are we
in the world now?
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It's something like 20
million. Twenty million.
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And that's 20
million viewpoints,
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that's 20 million attitudes,
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that's 20 million
different experiences
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coming together under
the banner of a truth.
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And they bring that
experience to the table.
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So we have to be very pragmatic,
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we have to be
open-minded in how we approach.
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I think we have common beliefs
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as any other religious
organization would have,
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but then those
beliefs are codified
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in a group of
policies or biblical principles
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that hold us
together, but at the same time,
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allows for a
diversity of thought,
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diversity of practice.
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But not just within our church.
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We have to allow for...
No, from outside, outside.
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Definitely.
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And I think part of allowing
is to be open to dialoguing
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and comprehending to
some degree of the beliefs.
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And human things generally,
I think, in the modern era,
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are even more lacking of
that than they used to be.
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They have a saying in
Britain, and it goes like this.
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"Mind's a likely..."
Where you grew up, right?
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Where I grew up.
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Your accent's betraying you.
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Well, of course,
I'm not hiding it.
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Minds are like umbrellas,
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not much good
unless they're open.
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Yeah, that's a good one.
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And we have to be very careful
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that we don't keep
the umbrella closed.
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But we broaden our thinking,
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strong in
principles that we believe in,
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but at the same time,
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you can't get to know someone
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unless you spend time with them.
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Right.
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Well, you know,
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just on something
that's going on right now,
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since 9/11, at least,
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the US and I think
the larger Western world,
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particularly is suddenly
trying to discover about Islam.
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But very seldom
though I come across people
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that have read the Quran.
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Well, I think
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not necessarily
read and studied,
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but I think we
should be somewhat familiar
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with other systems.
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But primarily,
before we even do that,
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we should read our own.
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When you have someone
that hasn't read the Bible,
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hasn't read the Quran,
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what sort of a
discussion could you have?
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Even with good intentions
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that easily goes towards
sort of polemical or partisan
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backwards and forwards,
and nobody's helped by it.
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And we've seen that.
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We have seen the ostracizing,
we have seen the dehumanizing,
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the politicizing of principles
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that we believe in
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because we do not engage
to find that other person's...
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To listen to
that person's story.
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And, you know, in engagement,
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you might not find
encouraging information
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from the other side,
but it'll be correct.
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You know, a lot of the
dialogue that's going on now,
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I think, as I said,
very often from people
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that are not truly informed,
but it's dialogue, at least.
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It's designed to sort of
create a neutral commonality.
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And so uncomfortable facts
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about beliefs or
ideals of a group,
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religious or
otherwise are ignored,
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and then the commonality
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and then
everything's hunky-dory.
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But I think in
religious liberty,
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that's not necessary.
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Once you have an
upfront acceptance
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that we're all
creatures of Creator God.
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And the US Constitution
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in its own pseudo
pagan way recognizes that,
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you know, nature
and nature's God.
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But once you accept that,
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then there should be a
charity toward the other person.
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And that charity would mean
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when you discover that
their views are radically,
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not so much opposed,
00:12:09.39\00:12:10.73
but radically
different from yours,
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then that's what it is.
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It's not necessarily
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that they not be
radically different for you
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to be agreeable with them.
00:12:17.10\00:12:18.43
Right.
00:12:18.47\00:12:19.80
And I think, if you
can find the commonalities,
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you know, you should
have a definite interest that
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in engaging in that person.
00:12:26.91\00:12:28.84
As I said before, you
want to listen to them.
00:12:28.88\00:12:31.01
And you also want to learn.
00:12:31.05\00:12:32.88
You lose nothing by learning,
you lose nothing by listening.
00:12:32.91\00:12:37.55
Well, you gain a lot
more, you know, I suppose.
00:12:37.59\00:12:38.92
Well, you do.
00:12:38.95\00:12:40.29
And I mean, it's
got to be interactive.
00:12:40.32\00:12:41.66
That's why I
believe Jesus epitomizes
00:12:41.69\00:12:45.29
that in terms of
listening to the stories.
00:12:45.33\00:12:48.33
He listened to the
Syrophoenician woman,
00:12:48.36\00:12:50.17
He listened to
the woman at the well,
00:12:50.20\00:12:52.17
He listened to
the Roman centurion,
00:12:52.20\00:12:54.50
He did a lot of listening,
and His responses were,
00:12:54.54\00:12:58.41
"Well, I do
represent God as the Father.
00:12:58.44\00:13:02.14
I am His son.
00:13:02.18\00:13:03.51
I do
represent... I am also Jewish.
00:13:03.55\00:13:06.28
But I don't mind..."
00:13:06.31\00:13:07.65
Well, He said He
was the Son of God.
00:13:07.68\00:13:09.02
Most times, He said
He was the Son of God.
00:13:09.05\00:13:10.39
Son of God, see it, Son of man.
00:13:10.42\00:13:11.75
So He emphasized
to come in humanity.
00:13:11.79\00:13:13.12
Exactly.
00:13:13.15\00:13:14.49
He built that
initial connection.
00:13:14.52\00:13:15.86
And He stepped out of the frame
00:13:15.89\00:13:18.96
or the restrictions of
what we're expected of Him
00:13:18.99\00:13:22.03
in order to
engage with human beings
00:13:22.06\00:13:24.40
regardless of
where they came from.
00:13:24.43\00:13:25.77
Well, yeah, it's
worth remembering on Christ,
00:13:25.80\00:13:27.87
the biggest attack
made against Him by enemies
00:13:27.90\00:13:30.91
within His own people
00:13:30.94\00:13:32.31
were that He was the friend
00:13:32.34\00:13:34.11
and companion of
sinners and publicans,
00:13:34.14\00:13:36.91
in other words,
drunkards and revelers,
00:13:36.95\00:13:40.65
you know, the
low life of society.
00:13:40.68\00:13:42.28
And I think they were right.
00:13:42.32\00:13:45.09
But that's that...
00:13:45.12\00:13:46.45
Not that He was one of them,
00:13:46.49\00:13:47.82
but Jesus would
associate with anybody
00:13:47.86\00:13:51.33
that He could get close to
00:13:51.36\00:13:52.69
because He wanted to communicate
00:13:52.73\00:13:54.80
because of the
principles of heaven.
00:13:54.83\00:13:56.80
But just as a human being,
I think He wanted to connect.
00:13:56.83\00:13:59.73
You know, I also...
00:13:59.77\00:14:01.10
And here's the
other interesting thing,
00:14:01.14\00:14:03.77
which is risky.
00:14:03.81\00:14:05.14
And that's what
I love about Jesus
00:14:05.17\00:14:07.58
is the fact that He was here
00:14:07.61\00:14:10.51
to remind the people of His day,
00:14:10.55\00:14:14.12
what their true calling
was, and that was to be sought.
00:14:14.15\00:14:17.52
That was to permeate.
00:14:17.55\00:14:19.59
That was to... You can't...
00:14:19.62\00:14:20.96
If salt stays in
the bottle, it's no use.
00:14:20.99\00:14:23.39
So He did that.
00:14:23.43\00:14:25.26
Well, you used wonderful
word, pictures, and imagery
00:14:25.29\00:14:27.40
that indicated
great spiritual truth.
00:14:27.43\00:14:30.20
Stay with us.
00:14:30.23\00:14:31.57
We'll be back in a short while
to continue this discussion.
00:14:31.60\00:14:35.74
Thank you.
00:14:35.77\00:14:37.11