Welcome back to Liberty Insider.
00:00:03.70\00:00:05.27
Before the break
with guest John Reeve,
00:00:05.30\00:00:08.47
we were going over
00:00:08.50\00:00:10.47
some Adventist
history to explain
00:00:10.51\00:00:13.81
why religious liberty
00:00:13.84\00:00:15.18
is so important
for Adventists today.
00:00:15.21\00:00:16.64
And it is. It's...
00:00:16.68\00:00:19.81
You know, it's
one of the departments
00:00:19.85\00:00:21.18
within our church,
00:00:21.22\00:00:22.55
but as far as
the members support
00:00:22.58\00:00:24.09
and the money and so on.
00:00:24.12\00:00:26.39
It's unchanging over the years,
it's a consistent support,
00:00:26.42\00:00:31.36
and as you said very succinctly,
00:00:31.39\00:00:32.89
it's tied up to our
doctrinal world view.
00:00:32.93\00:00:36.20
Yeah.
00:00:36.23\00:00:37.57
And as such, we as
people need to be careful
00:00:37.60\00:00:40.90
to make sure we're not
just getting religious liberty
00:00:40.94\00:00:44.74
for Sabbath keepers,
00:00:44.77\00:00:46.31
we need to make sure
00:00:46.34\00:00:47.68
that we're
getting religious liberty
00:00:47.71\00:00:49.04
for all people, for all faiths.
00:00:49.08\00:00:50.88
Well, I made a comment...
00:00:50.91\00:00:52.45
I remember making a
comment at some seminar groups
00:00:52.48\00:00:55.98
at the time of the
last presidential election.
00:00:56.02\00:00:58.35
And as you know and
many of our viewers know,
00:00:58.39\00:01:01.36
a Seventh-day Adventist
was one of the contenders
00:01:01.39\00:01:03.49
for president.
00:01:03.53\00:01:04.99
And, of course,
00:01:05.03\00:01:06.36
that was exciting for
many individual Adventists,
00:01:06.39\00:01:10.27
but I don't think
they'd all thought through
00:01:10.30\00:01:12.07
what that meant.
00:01:12.10\00:01:13.60
And so I said to
them, at one stage,
00:01:13.64\00:01:15.40
"What are you
expecting from such a person?"
00:01:15.44\00:01:17.77
In this case,
we knew who he was,
00:01:17.81\00:01:19.14
but whoever and
any Adventist running.
00:01:19.17\00:01:21.08
I said you want
them to act the same way
00:01:21.11\00:01:23.75
as president towards Adventist
00:01:23.78\00:01:25.41
that we feared
that President Kennedy
00:01:25.45\00:01:27.45
would act towards Catholics?
00:01:27.48\00:01:29.62
But...
00:01:29.65\00:01:30.99
And he didn't,
00:01:31.02\00:01:32.35
Kennedy kept a good
separation of church and state.
00:01:32.39\00:01:34.12
Correct.
00:01:34.16\00:01:35.49
But, you know, it's
nice that he perhaps,
00:01:35.52\00:01:37.69
this doctor was,
00:01:37.73\00:01:39.16
you know, one of our company,
00:01:39.19\00:01:40.53
but if a president,
you would expect him
00:01:40.56\00:01:43.26
to be engaged
with several governance
00:01:43.30\00:01:47.50
and
facilitating the full freedom
00:01:47.54\00:01:49.34
of religious
liberty for all people,
00:01:49.37\00:01:51.01
he can't afford to
be playing favorites.
00:01:51.04\00:01:53.88
And I said...
00:01:53.91\00:01:55.24
And I also said in that context,
00:01:55.28\00:01:56.85
it's worth thinking about,
00:01:56.88\00:01:58.21
"If we had a
president or a government
00:01:58.25\00:02:00.02
or whatever
entity in the government
00:02:00.05\00:02:01.72
that passed an edict saying,
00:02:01.75\00:02:03.69
"Now that the
Seventh-day Sabbath,
00:02:03.72\00:02:05.95
by-law has to be
the day everyone keeps."
00:02:05.99\00:02:09.02
That would be as
wrong as what we feared
00:02:09.06\00:02:11.39
that Sunday one
day will be designated
00:02:11.43\00:02:15.06
under panel of law as the day.
00:02:15.10\00:02:16.93
We don't believe in
religious legislation
00:02:16.97\00:02:20.00
for the state to tell people
how to practice their faith.
00:02:20.04\00:02:23.20
Even if what they
were querying is good.
00:02:23.24\00:02:26.31
It's...
00:02:26.34\00:02:27.68
In fact, it's the litmus
test of religious liberty.
00:02:27.71\00:02:30.31
If there's cohesion involved,
it's not religious liberty.
00:02:30.35\00:02:33.45
"Cohesion."
00:02:33.48\00:02:34.82
That's an
interesting concept. Yeah.
00:02:34.85\00:02:36.65
What kind of
cohesion equal cohesion.
00:02:36.69\00:02:39.42
I mean, you've got obvious laws
00:02:39.45\00:02:41.49
with consequences as cohesion...
00:02:41.52\00:02:43.16
Well, fines and
penalties like that,
00:02:43.19\00:02:45.09
imprisonment.
00:02:45.13\00:02:46.46
Ellen White
once goes through it.
00:02:46.49\00:02:47.83
She says, "It's
mockery, then harassment,
00:02:47.86\00:02:53.03
and then fines,
imprisonment, and death."
00:02:53.07\00:02:55.40
Yeah.
00:02:55.44\00:02:56.77
Doesn't start off
with the endpoint,
00:02:56.81\00:02:58.14
but they're all wrong.
00:02:58.17\00:02:59.51
Right.
00:02:59.54\00:03:00.88
And they're all
trying to take away
00:03:00.91\00:03:02.24
the right of the
individual to make the choice.
00:03:02.28\00:03:03.65
So what's the difference between
00:03:03.68\00:03:06.15
a mob rule view
of religious liberty
00:03:06.18\00:03:11.29
and a democratic
view of religious liberty?
00:03:11.32\00:03:16.46
Very perceptive question.
00:03:16.49\00:03:19.16
Well...
00:03:19.19\00:03:20.53
And I'm sure you'll ask it
because the intimation is given
00:03:20.56\00:03:24.93
to Seventh-day Adventist
that at the end of time,
00:03:24.97\00:03:29.44
a National Sunday Law
00:03:29.47\00:03:30.81
which takes its
cue from Revelation
00:03:30.84\00:03:34.21
where it says, you
know, the mark of the beast,
00:03:34.24\00:03:36.51
they're all required to
obey the certain dictate.
00:03:36.54\00:03:40.88
And we believe,
00:03:40.92\00:03:44.59
and we told that it
will be people clamoring
00:03:44.62\00:03:47.16
to the legislators for such law.
00:03:47.19\00:03:50.26
Yeah.
00:03:50.29\00:03:51.63
And that troubled me
since the 2000 election.
00:03:51.66\00:03:56.10
In the main, the
population seemed to believe
00:03:56.13\00:03:59.00
that if the
majority wants something,
00:03:59.03\00:04:01.00
they should get it.
00:04:01.04\00:04:02.37
Yeah.
00:04:02.40\00:04:03.74
And even in the Supreme
Court the question is often,
00:04:03.77\00:04:08.54
"Is the population ready
for such and such a law?"
00:04:08.58\00:04:11.15
Right.
00:04:11.18\00:04:12.51
As supposed to, "Is
such and such a law just,
00:04:12.55\00:04:16.15
does it fit into the society?"
00:04:16.18\00:04:18.35
And anybody that
does a bit of study
00:04:18.39\00:04:20.29
on American
history knows that the...
00:04:20.32\00:04:24.03
Sometimes wise men
that put things together
00:04:24.06\00:04:26.86
had a great fear of the mob rule
00:04:26.90\00:04:29.90
of people rising up as a
body and demanding something.
00:04:29.93\00:04:33.37
And a lot of the
mechanisms of law
00:04:33.40\00:04:35.97
and certainly the Bill of Rights
00:04:36.00\00:04:37.81
fits in with this,
00:04:37.84\00:04:39.17
is designed to protect the
minority from the majority.
00:04:39.21\00:04:42.98
Correct.
00:04:43.01\00:04:44.95
And in its heart
00:04:44.98\00:04:46.31
religious liberty must
fall into that category.
00:04:46.35\00:04:50.12
Absolutely.
00:04:50.15\00:04:51.49
But it's
reminding me of an incident
00:04:51.52\00:04:54.76
that I listened to
on BBC a few years ago.
00:04:54.79\00:04:58.46
There was an interview
00:04:58.49\00:04:59.83
with the foreign
minister of the Maldives.
00:04:59.86\00:05:03.73
And he was representing
his country very well
00:05:03.77\00:05:05.87
in the interview,
00:05:05.90\00:05:07.24
portraying it as
an island paradise.
00:05:07.27\00:05:08.64
And it's in the
tropical area, a nice country.
00:05:08.67\00:05:10.97
Very low lying.
00:05:11.01\00:05:12.34
It's at risk of
global sea level rising
00:05:12.37\00:05:15.28
of disappearing totally.
00:05:15.31\00:05:16.85
But anyhow, he portrayed it
very nicely, an idyllic place,
00:05:16.88\00:05:20.28
wonderful society,
free, and all the rest.
00:05:20.32\00:05:23.08
And the interviewer said,
00:05:23.12\00:05:24.45
"But now what
about religious freedom?"
00:05:24.49\00:05:27.16
That's right, he says,
"What about religious freedom?"
00:05:27.19\00:05:29.12
"Oh, yes, we have
religious freedom.
00:05:29.16\00:05:31.49
Absolutely."
00:05:31.53\00:05:32.86
He says,
"Although the population
00:05:32.89\00:05:34.66
is pretty much a 100%
Muslim, so it's not an issue."
00:05:34.70\00:05:38.83
And the interviewer says,
00:05:38.87\00:05:40.20
"Well, you know,
I'm a Christian,"
00:05:40.24\00:05:41.57
he says, "Would I be allowed
00:05:41.60\00:05:42.97
to go to your country
and practice my faith?"
00:05:43.00\00:05:46.27
And I can't believe...
00:05:46.31\00:05:48.31
I'll never forget
the response of the guy.
00:05:48.34\00:05:51.35
Suddenly reacted at horror,
he says, "Certainly not!"
00:05:51.38\00:05:54.98
He says, "We might
as well invite Al-Qaeda
00:05:55.02\00:05:57.09
into our country."
00:05:57.12\00:05:59.55
So, you know, the
things were peaceful there
00:05:59.59\00:06:02.72
according to him
because they're all the same.
00:06:02.76\00:06:05.29
Whether or not anyone
00:06:05.33\00:06:06.66
who tried to change
their religion, probably not,
00:06:06.70\00:06:09.16
probably know that
it wouldn't be allowed.
00:06:09.20\00:06:10.53
But at least you
hadn't been tested
00:06:10.57\00:06:12.53
but when it's tested,
00:06:12.57\00:06:13.90
they're not going to allow this.
00:06:13.94\00:06:15.90
And we need to keep that in mind
00:06:15.94\00:06:17.54
that the majority are
often very comfortable,
00:06:17.57\00:06:20.78
but if you test the principle
00:06:20.81\00:06:22.98
by the minority
in this case and...
00:06:23.01\00:06:29.28
I do think we're
heading towards this idea
00:06:29.32\00:06:31.95
that the majority, if
they want it, they get it.
00:06:31.99\00:06:34.39
And there's a
strong move in the US
00:06:34.42\00:06:36.32
that I think
it's very problematic,
00:06:36.36\00:06:37.89
not just from a
religious liberty point of view,
00:06:37.93\00:06:40.23
from several governance.
00:06:40.26\00:06:41.66
There is a
strong move to do away
00:06:41.70\00:06:43.26
with the Electoral
College and the senate,
00:06:43.30\00:06:47.30
you know, why should some states
00:06:47.34\00:06:49.57
have more power
than the sizable warranty
00:06:49.60\00:06:52.21
to set it up,
00:06:52.24\00:06:53.58
so the majority
of the population
00:06:53.61\00:06:55.68
will get what they want."
00:06:55.71\00:06:57.05
And, of course,
00:06:57.08\00:06:58.41
part of this is that the
president will be elected
00:06:58.45\00:06:59.95
by pure majoritarian vote.
00:06:59.98\00:07:02.88
But they don't
understand why it was set up,
00:07:02.92\00:07:04.72
it was preciously to
spread the influence first,
00:07:04.75\00:07:08.62
and maybe even first preciously
00:07:08.66\00:07:10.63
to protect the
minority from the majority.
00:07:10.66\00:07:14.76
You know, on
those original colonies
00:07:14.80\00:07:16.50
you have...
00:07:16.53\00:07:17.87
We talked at the
very beginning here
00:07:17.90\00:07:19.23
about the fact that the many
of the church of England people
00:07:19.27\00:07:25.24
that came over
represented different subsets
00:07:25.27\00:07:27.94
of the Church of
England in different colonies
00:07:27.98\00:07:30.05
like Virginia was one
00:07:30.08\00:07:32.18
and then
Massachusetts is another,
00:07:32.21\00:07:34.58
and then, of course,
you have the Catholics
00:07:34.62\00:07:36.28
in Maryland,
etcetera, etcetera...
00:07:36.32\00:07:38.09
Well, that's my
view on why things worked
00:07:38.12\00:07:40.02
so well here
because it had balkanized
00:07:40.06\00:07:42.39
the situation so
much that no one party
00:07:42.42\00:07:45.93
had any chance of a majority,
00:07:45.96\00:07:47.60
say they were
all rather agreeable
00:07:47.63\00:07:49.46
with each other on
the national level,
00:07:49.50\00:07:51.40
not on the state level.
00:07:51.43\00:07:53.10
The national level,
it made perfect sense
00:07:53.13\00:07:55.34
to have a freedom for all
00:07:55.37\00:07:57.94
and no favoritism from
the federal government.
00:07:57.97\00:08:00.21
Yeah.
00:08:00.24\00:08:01.58
Which allowed
because of the fact
00:08:01.61\00:08:03.58
that there was
no single majority
00:08:03.61\00:08:05.41
but a whole bunch of
minorities religiously speaking.
00:08:05.45\00:08:09.38
It allowed the environment of,
00:08:09.42\00:08:13.39
we have to be allowing
for the minority rights
00:08:13.42\00:08:16.56
because
everybody was a minority.
00:08:16.59\00:08:18.09
Yeah.
00:08:18.13\00:08:19.46
So in a
situation where you end up
00:08:19.49\00:08:21.56
with a majority taking over,
00:08:21.60\00:08:24.73
can that majority
00:08:24.77\00:08:26.13
actually look out for
the rights of the minority.
00:08:26.17\00:08:30.64
In a world, where we are
more and more getting polarized,
00:08:30.67\00:08:35.81
can the polarization
look out for minority rights?
00:08:35.84\00:08:38.98
Religious liberty at its
heart is must be for all,
00:08:39.01\00:08:44.75
let's not forget.
00:08:44.79\00:08:48.32
Sometimes with all the
emphasis on the health message
00:08:48.36\00:08:51.06
and doing good
things in the community,
00:08:51.09\00:08:53.63
even Seventh-day Adventists
00:08:53.66\00:08:55.63
can become a little
forgetful of the prophetic
00:08:55.66\00:08:59.30
and the end time thinking
00:08:59.33\00:09:01.30
that gave rise to
this church organization.
00:09:01.34\00:09:05.84
In the mid 1800s,
00:09:05.87\00:09:07.78
people in America was
stood by social change
00:09:07.81\00:09:10.88
and many Bible
believing Christians
00:09:10.91\00:09:12.81
were convinced
the end of the world
00:09:12.85\00:09:14.18
was upon them.
00:09:14.22\00:09:15.55
It seems sort of quaint
00:09:15.58\00:09:16.92
if you look back on it that way.
00:09:16.95\00:09:18.29
But today, look
at science fiction,
00:09:18.32\00:09:20.56
almost every
science fiction show
00:09:20.59\00:09:22.66
and many television programs
00:09:22.69\00:09:24.23
expositing the end of the
world in an apocalyptic sense.
00:09:24.26\00:09:29.23
But for Adventists today,
00:09:29.26\00:09:31.13
the prophecies
that inform Millerites
00:09:31.17\00:09:33.34
and Adventists back
then should be present today
00:09:33.37\00:09:37.64
and the dynamic that guides us
00:09:37.67\00:09:39.67
because the
headlines scream at us,
00:09:39.71\00:09:42.68
"That this and
these are the end times."
00:09:42.71\00:09:46.88
And what's to come?
00:09:46.92\00:09:48.58
First, a great
proclamation of liberty
00:09:48.62\00:09:51.19
throughout the land,
00:09:51.22\00:09:52.55
and then the call should
go out that the Liberator,
00:09:52.59\00:09:55.22
the Creator is coming
in the clouds of glory.
00:09:55.26\00:09:59.89
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:09:59.93\00:10:02.46