Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI190425A
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00:26 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:28 This is your program, bringing news, views, 00:30 and information on religious liberty in the US 00:35 and of course around the world. 00:37 My name is Lincoln Steed, Editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:40 And my guest on this program is Professor John Reeve 00:44 from Andrews University, Church History Department. 00:49 Let's talk about church history, 00:52 your church and my church, 00:53 the Seventh-day Adventist church, 00:55 and the church 00:58 that in many ways lies behind 3ABN, 01:01 the assumption of the Three Angels' Messages 01:05 for an end-time scenario. 01:08 The Seventh-day Adventist church 01:09 is an interesting movement 01:13 that arose first in the United States. 01:16 And as you and I were even talking before the program, 01:18 it arose at a very critical time, 01:20 in the mid 1800s, 01:21 when the United States was barely a country. 01:25 I'm very aware that in the war of 1812, 01:28 which foolishly the US began, 01:33 England didn't even accept 01:34 that it was a separate country by then. 01:35 Right. 01:37 And just a little detachment of English redcoats 01:41 disembarked from about, 01:44 went up to Washington and took it by storm, 01:46 burned the Whitehouse and went back to the ships. 01:48 It was that easy. 01:50 I mean, it's not to diminish America 01:51 or whatsoever, it's done incredible progress. 01:54 But the point is, it was a slow start. 01:57 And so, in those very beginnings 01:59 of Americana 02:01 or the American society, here, this movement, 02:03 the Millerite Movement developed, 02:05 studying prophecies, 02:07 convinced that the end was upon us, 02:10 and America was to play a key role. 02:15 Didn't happen as William Miller thought. 02:17 And then out of that disappointment, 02:20 developed the Seventh-day Adventist movement 02:22 and the idea of a remnant 02:25 final message to give to the world. 02:28 Correct. 02:29 That's the bigger backdrop. 02:31 But of course, 02:32 something unique happened with this group 02:34 that gave them a particular impetus 02:37 for religious freedom. 02:40 Let me hear your analysis of it, 02:42 but it happened very, very early on, didn't it? 02:46 Well, one of the reasons that had happened 02:49 to the Seventh-day Adventist group 02:51 before they were even a Seventh-day Adventist group, 02:54 they were just, what they called themselves, 02:56 the little flock. 02:58 It was a group of about 100 of the 50,000 Millerites 03:04 that continue on together, 03:07 seeking to find a biblical reason 03:10 for the disappointment 03:11 and how it all fit into biblical prophecy 03:14 and ended up, eventually, about 20 years later, 03:19 becoming the Seventh-day Adventist church. 03:21 But early on, same as... 03:24 By the way, the church was formed 03:25 almost just a year or two before the Civil War, 03:28 so it was in the... 03:29 Correct. 03:31 The time of great upheaval within the country. 03:33 Correct. 03:34 So the early proto-Adventists, if we can call them that, 03:40 we're very aware 03:42 that they have been trying to evangelize 03:47 while being ignored for their differences. 03:50 Well, ignored at first, and then kicked out. 03:52 Yeah, of course. 03:53 It was harassment and persecution. 03:55 Yes, they get kicked out. 03:58 First, out of the churches 03:59 that they were part of during the Millerite Movement, 04:01 and then they get kicked out 04:04 of the post Millerite Movement itself. 04:06 It's true. 04:07 So they've had a lot of rejection. 04:10 And then having a lot of rejection, 04:12 they were trying to come to terms 04:15 with how to provide rationally for their understanding 04:20 as we have the right to do what we're doing 04:23 to study the scripture for ourselves 04:25 and to understand 04:27 where God is leading us, etcetera. 04:29 And so that mentality 04:31 becomes part of the identity 04:35 that people should be able to study the scriptures 04:38 for themselves 04:40 and follow the dictates of their conscience. 04:43 And I believe they picked up a lot of it 04:45 very self consciously from the reformation 04:49 because they, early on, decided that 04:51 they were in the tradition of the reformation 04:52 and the continuation of it. 04:55 And so it came with package. 04:57 But it's a time when the church organizes into a church. 05:02 The Seventh-day Adventist group, 05:04 proto-Seventh-day Adventist group, 05:06 whatever we're going to call them, 05:07 organizes themselves into a church 05:10 during the Civil War. 05:12 And during the Civil War, 05:13 one of the things that was very part 05:15 and parcel with the dynamic of this new group was, 05:21 "Should we fight or should we not?" 05:23 Yeah. 05:25 And if they are not going to fight, 05:27 then suddenly, 05:28 they're going to up and against the conscriptions 05:31 and the laws that are saying, 05:33 "You must fight if you are conscripted." 05:36 Well, you could buy your way out of that conscription. 05:38 Yeah, but not all of us were rich. 05:40 No. 05:42 Yes, not too many of the early Adventist group were. 05:45 That's correct. 05:47 So then, the idea that, 05:50 "I should be forced to fight even though my conscience 05:54 does not allow me to fight," was part and parcel 05:57 with the early Adventist understanding of, 05:59 "We must maintain religious liberty." 06:02 Yeah. 06:04 You're right. 06:05 There's a connection between it. 06:07 What's interesting to me is Ellen White 06:10 who was recognized from the very beginning, 06:15 having a, you know, Spiritual role to play 06:18 in the messages that she gave to that group, 06:21 she said that God's punishment rested on the South 06:24 for their embrace of slavery. 06:27 So if there was ever a just war or a moral cause 06:31 for the Civil War, she'd given it. 06:33 And yet they decided, 06:35 consistent with Bible truth, 06:38 that a Christian really 06:39 shouldn't be part of these wars. 06:41 Yeah. 06:42 And yet past the muster of a just war. 06:45 Well, to be fair, she also said... 06:47 On the whole scenario. 06:49 She also said that God's judgment 06:51 had fallen on the North 06:53 for their toleration of slavery first of all. 06:54 Well, that's true. 06:57 But there's no question that, in general comments, 07:01 you know, she saw a great problem in the South, 07:05 and she and many of the original pioneers 07:09 were quite sympathetic to the anti-slavery movements. 07:13 That's correct. 07:14 And some of them were involved in the Underground Railroad. 07:18 That's correct. 07:19 And Ellen White comes across, 07:21 as did Joseph Bates and James White 07:24 as far as that ended. 07:25 And the three of them are often called 07:27 the three founders of Seventh-day Adventism. 07:30 Together, one of the things that they strongly agreed on 07:32 was that there should not be slaves. 07:35 Yeah, yeah. 07:37 And to be fair to American history, 07:40 a lot of the founding fathers were of the same view. 07:42 They just didn't have the moxie to back the system. 07:46 Yeah. Well, George Washington was... 07:49 Well, no. He's not one of the ones. 07:51 Well, he's a case in point though 07:53 in that he freed his slaves at the death of his wife. 07:58 Which almost sounds like 07:59 he didn't like his wife too much. 08:01 I wouldn't have wanted to be a slave earner 08:04 who slaves knew that depended upon the death 08:07 of the owner for their freedom. 08:09 I mean, she's needed food taster, I would think. 08:12 Yeah. 08:13 No, but George, I don't think George Washington 08:15 is as easily exonerated as some of the others. 08:17 No. 08:20 In fact, he even went as far as when he was up in the North, 08:25 he would rotate his slaves back on regular intervals 08:29 to keep them in the servitude. 08:32 Because if they stayed too long in the North, 08:35 what was it, Philadelphia or whatever, 08:37 they could technically be allowed to free. 08:39 And so he... 08:41 I've read his biography in great little depth on it. 08:44 And on excuses that need to be sent home 08:48 to visit their relative or whatever. 08:49 And then one escaped, a woman, 08:52 and he had authorities chase her down. 08:55 But in the end, 08:56 she was supported by the community, 08:57 and he couldn't extract her. 08:59 So he was not just ambivalent, 09:01 he was rather actively engaged 09:04 in keeping his slave system going. 09:07 But Jefferson and others, I think, had... 09:09 In fact, Jefferson said 09:11 it was going to cause trouble sooner or later. 09:12 Yeah. Yeah. 09:14 But indeed, it did cause trouble. 09:17 And when it did cause trouble, 09:19 many of the early Adventists were blatantly anti slavery. 09:23 And therefore, 09:25 the Civil War had the smackings of a just war 09:30 and yet they argued that they should not kill. 09:34 It proves to me, 09:35 it was a more reasoned response. 09:37 That's really my point. 09:38 Yeah. 09:40 They had personal 09:41 and even immediately moral reasons 09:44 for getting involved in it 09:46 because there was a great wrong at work, 09:48 but they saw evidence from the Bible 09:49 and they were not to enter into these civil feuds 09:53 and violence against other human beings. 09:56 And the conscription of soldiers 09:58 from the communities of the North 10:00 were the law that they were bucking 10:03 when they started to articulate, 10:05 clearly, a religious freedom. 10:07 Yes. 10:08 And then the other thing that was a clear reality. 10:12 I think when they were only about 25,000 Adventists, 10:18 as many as 900 to 1000 of them was severely fined 10:22 and some imprisoned over the blue laws. 10:25 Yeah. 10:27 So they saw the consequence of being a little different. 10:30 And, of course, the blue laws were having to do with laws 10:34 enforcing Sunday keeping 10:37 and the absence of working on Sunday 10:40 was what the Adventist would get in trouble. 10:41 Well, they'd get in trouble 10:42 for plowing their fields on Sunday. 10:44 Yeah, it's correct. 10:45 Not going working somewhere else 10:47 and not even working for money, just keeping your fields. 10:51 Yeah. 10:52 It was an interesting era. 10:54 But though it is at the point 10:56 where they were getting in trouble 10:59 for breaking laws of the land 11:02 that they turned their attention 11:03 to the need for religious liberty. 11:06 Yeah. 11:07 And how did that first get articulated? 11:10 Religious liberty? 11:11 Within the Adventist community. 11:13 Well, this was the point that I was going to make. 11:16 You know, the record is hard to find in great detail, 11:21 but it's very plain that religious within Adventism 11:25 came to the fore with the editorship 11:27 of AT Jones, Alonzo T Jones 11:30 who ironically or interestingly had joined 11:34 the Adventist church as left the military. 11:37 He was an ex-soldier. 11:38 Yeah, yes. 11:40 And I'm great on parallelism. 11:42 It's interesting that Ignatius Loyola 11:45 of the radical catholic reform, foot soldier movement. 11:51 He came from the military. 11:53 And with an Adventism, it took a military man. 11:55 Although he was not an Adventist 11:56 when he's in the military, 11:58 but I think he brought the military sensibility. 11:59 He was, "Go, go, go," and one battle after another. 12:04 But from all that I read, 12:05 his emphasis on religious liberty 12:08 came not directly from the persecutions 12:11 they were undergoing. 12:12 They spoke a bit about laws and all the rest, 12:14 but it was end-time oriented. 12:17 They believe that going into, 12:19 you know, the final events that they thought were, 12:22 you know, months and most years away 12:26 that they would be forced by persecuting powers 12:29 to give up their faith. 12:30 So it was an end-time direct, 12:33 you know, like a Diocletian type 12:35 persecution they expected. 12:37 And so they were proclaiming 12:38 the principle in an end-time concept, 12:42 prophetic, it can't be separated from it. 12:43 That's correct. 12:44 So it's reading the scripture that brought them... 12:47 Right. 12:49 In the AT Jones era, 12:50 it was reading the scripture that brought them 12:51 to the understanding 12:53 that we must provide religious freedom 12:54 because it's going to be taken away. 12:56 And then of course, in 1888, 12:58 they believed with a major proposal 13:03 for Sunday bill, the Blair bill, 13:06 Senator Blair had brought 13:08 in a piece of Sunday legislation 13:10 that went beyond normal blue laws 13:12 that would have mandated 13:15 no work of any kind in the whole country 13:18 and with the recommendation of hers 13:20 but probably enforcement later that you had to go to church. 13:23 So it was an overtly religious Sunday law. 13:26 And they saw this as the final law 13:28 that was predicted in Revelation. 13:32 And AT Jones trumpeted this big time, 13:35 and of course, some Adventists remember, 13:38 he then called for revival 13:40 so that they could be spiritually prepared 13:42 for the final push. 13:44 And so religious liberty for Adventists 13:46 was all about prophecy. 13:49 It always included using the law 13:52 to defend your situation in the workplace. 13:54 And today, many people think that that's our main emphasis, 13:58 but it never was and should never be. 14:00 We're looking at the larger picture of, 14:05 really, where we are in time and what's at stake 14:08 that this is cosmic battle between good and evil 14:11 and between freedom and those who would restrict 14:14 your right before God. 14:16 But it's not just restrict your right. 14:18 Anyone's right. 14:19 It's restricting anyone's right. 14:21 Oh. And thank you for reminding. 14:22 You know, we say it constantly, 14:24 and it's worth repeating on this program 14:25 as often as we can. 14:27 For us, as we read the Bible, 14:29 and with the Adventist history in mind, 14:32 when we promote religious liberty, 14:33 of course, it's for us. 14:35 But it's for everybody at the same time, 14:37 and it's for your right to be wrong. 14:40 We would hope you would get it straight. 14:43 But if you get it wrong and are convicted on it, fine. 14:47 You have as much right to believe that as anyone else. 14:50 You know, God gave Adam and Eve 14:52 the ability to make a wrong choice. 14:54 There were consequences. 14:57 There will always be natural consequences, 14:59 but we're not called upon to punish people 15:02 as the consequence of their bad choice. 15:04 They have to live before God on that. 15:07 And at root, what our view of religious liberty 15:09 that came from the reformation 15:11 and, of course, way back to Eden, 15:14 is that we recognize we're all creatures of a God 15:16 who gave us free choice 15:18 and we exercise that before God, 15:22 nobody else has a right to interfere in that, 15:25 not governments, not churches, nobody. 15:28 But historically then, even though Adventists, 15:31 like many other groups 15:33 address their first concerns about religious liberty 15:37 with their own restriction of it. 15:39 And they're feeling that they are being restricted. 15:40 Yeah, there's no question that it was personalized 15:42 by the group, yeah. 15:43 But the core of the teaching 15:46 comes from interpreting prophecy from scripture 15:49 and understanding the cosmic dynamics of this 15:53 and it is a good versus evil, 15:55 therefore, it must be for all 15:58 or it isn't for any becomes the concentration 16:01 of the Adventists and understanding 16:03 that they must provide religious freedom for others. 16:05 Absolutely. 16:06 Let's take a break before we come back 16:08 and continue this discussion of religious liberty 16:11 from an Adventist perspective, 16:12 its own beginnings, 16:14 and how it's to be seen in the larger sense 16:16 for all men and women and all peoples. 16:19 Stay with us. |
Revised 2019-03-28