Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI190424B
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00:04 Welcome back to Liberty Insider.
00:06 Before the break with my guest, we were... 00:11 Well, you tell us where we were, 00:13 we've gone up hill and down dale, 00:15 but from the point of view of the early Christian church, 00:18 and, of course, 00:20 how religious liberty and the individual relates 00:22 to some of those developments. 00:23 Well, showing how we go from Christianity 00:27 trying to be ignored, 00:28 so that they can have their freedom... 00:29 Yeah, I love that point. 00:31 To Christianity trying to cooperate 00:33 and be a part of the system in the public sphere 00:37 to where by the time you get 00:39 to Justinian's Christian Empire, 00:42 Rome has become Christianity. 00:44 Christianity has become Rome. 00:46 And, of course, 00:48 Christianity changed more than Rome did. 00:50 And so you end up with a state 00:53 that is claiming universal authority 00:56 based on God's will, 00:59 and then enforceable 01:01 because it was based on God's will. 01:03 And religious freedom 01:05 was not part of that economy. 01:09 And, you know, we had a little discussion 01:11 about empires and, of course, 01:14 the United States has been called 01:16 a modern empire. 01:17 But in what regard do you think that it radically differs 01:20 from Christianity under the Roman Empire, 01:23 which merged into one and the same? 01:26 Well, ironically, 01:28 the United States develops as a nation first. 01:32 And the envelopment of being a Christian nation 01:37 is actually an undercurrent and throughout time, 01:42 but it's always an undercurrent. 01:44 The big thing is freedom. 01:46 And so freedom and religious freedom 01:49 go hand in hand. 01:50 So America, United States, 01:53 is intending to provide religious freedom 01:56 over and against that which was not religious freedom 01:59 in the European nations. 02:01 And so it has a complete different history. 02:05 Christianity was not developed 02:07 in order to create religious freedom, 02:10 Christianity was not created, 02:11 not developed as a nation, it became an empire. 02:15 But that's not what it started as 02:17 nor what it required. 02:19 I thought long and hard why has the American experience 02:23 been so different from the old world? 02:27 Because religion played a huge role 02:29 in the different settlements in this government. 02:34 And I don't know 02:35 that there's any definitive answer. 02:37 I think one key thing that is... 02:38 I've just not read about it much. 02:41 But the Church of England, 02:42 which was the established Church of England, 02:46 and was strong in the United States, 02:48 of course, backed the crown in the War of Independence. 02:53 And, so America began its national life as a republic 02:57 with the most important church 03:00 discredited and seen as the ultimate other. 03:04 And even to this day, 03:05 it's why it's called the Episcopal Church 03:06 in the other states. 03:08 It doesn't sort of fly very well, 03:09 Anglican or Church of England. 03:11 And so the back was broken, 03:13 you know, established not so much. 03:15 Well, it was an established 03:17 but a politically powerful church. 03:19 And what was left was a patchwork quilt. 03:23 And when I look at the American history that way, 03:25 it seems to me it's had in very small microcosm, 03:28 all of the problems of the old world 03:31 but so balkanized on such a smaller level 03:34 that it really didn't affect the whole the same way. 03:37 And the nation develops as disparate groups 03:42 trying to hold on to the things they shared. 03:46 And that's a very big difference 03:49 between that and Christianity. 03:50 Well, the infusion of the whole enlightenment concept 03:53 of Maryland Independence, 03:56 and we're autonomous beings and so on. 04:01 It's a horrible admission to make as a Christian, 04:03 but I think, given that Christianity 04:06 with the Roman Empire devolved to such a level, 04:09 we needed this infusion of secular self determination 04:12 to sort of break the spell, 04:14 even though godless self determination 04:16 is what Satan was pushing in the garden. 04:20 Yes, but in some ways, 04:22 a true view of Christian freedom 04:27 is actually reflected in that humanistic feeling. 04:30 Oh, yeah, it almost inadvertently. 04:32 You're right, nature and nature is God. 04:34 Right. 04:35 So you end up with the religious dynamic, 04:38 even though there are some of them trying 04:39 to completely get rid of that religious dynamic. 04:42 Well, even as you say that, 04:43 I'm thinking about Lord Byron and his Manfred poem, 04:49 he says in Rome, you know, he did not... 04:51 He looked in the ruins and all the rest, he says, 04:53 and until the whole thing became religion. 04:57 So secularism almost taken to the limit 04:59 becomes a religion. 05:00 I don't really buy into the idea 05:02 that is often said that that secularism in the US 05:06 should be managed and recognized as a religion. 05:09 I don't think that's quite right, 05:11 it makes no claims that way, 05:12 even if people behave toward a secular agenda 05:16 like a religious person. 05:17 But why is it treated that way here? 05:20 Because it's viewed as a tribe, 05:22 and tribes have religious autonomy. 05:25 Yeah. 05:26 And they're protecting their religious views, 05:28 and even those that are anti-religious, 05:31 that is viewed by the larger group 05:33 as a religious viewpoint... 05:35 Yeah, well, in that regard, yes. 05:36 Because of tribalism. 05:38 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 05:39 So, you know, again, this is a moveable feast, 05:43 and it's interesting to discuss in the US 05:46 how old these ancient influences 05:49 came together 05:50 and yet to really truly enable religious liberty 05:54 at the best times. 05:56 But as always an aspirational view 05:59 that wasn't shared in previous ages. 06:02 And I can't remember Rome ever did some good things, 06:06 but it never made these grand statements of 06:08 all men are free and all of these, 06:10 quite the contrary. 06:11 As the new world was settled in, 06:13 the pope determined at one point, 06:15 they're not even human beings. 06:18 So the US, 06:19 I think, has fulfilled a wonderfully enabling role 06:22 of holding up a great ideal, 06:24 not always living up to it, but it's an ideal 06:27 that facilitated religious freedom 06:29 and civil liberties in a way that 06:32 that the old states 06:33 and the older religious entities 06:35 haven't been able... 06:36 Weren't able to do. 06:38 So why is it collapsing in now? 06:40 That's the question. 06:42 Viewers... 06:43 No, no, we need to discuss that. 06:45 It is collapsing in, right. 06:46 It is collapsing in, and the attitude of people is 06:49 we need freedom for me, not for you. 06:54 It's tribalism again asserting itself, 06:56 so the very thing that's causing 06:59 the great religions of the world, 07:00 Hinduism is now turning to having a Hindu state. 07:06 Many of the Islamic nations are saying 07:09 now we are going to be Islamic nations 07:12 and have Islamic law in our nations. 07:14 And there's this great pole 07:17 within the few Christian nations 07:20 that are still Christian enough to have mostly 07:23 church going Christians in them to say, 07:25 "We must become a Christian state." 07:27 Is that a loss or is that a gain? 07:31 Well, 07:33 you know, we can analyze this at great length. 07:35 What I think is going on. 07:37 Ironically, in this age of communications, 07:41 there's less personal knowledge of the different faiths 07:44 that people are subscribed to. 07:46 So they're not informed about their own faith. 07:49 And their reaction that you described 07:51 is because they perceive a threat to their identity. 07:55 This is the great thing about globalism, 07:59 is threatening to most groups. 08:02 They feel that 08:03 they'll be sort of bled away into a larger hole, 08:06 and they don't want that. 08:07 So you have a threat and then an ignorance about who you are, 08:10 and it gets toxic very quickly I think. 08:13 But what is in... 08:15 I feel the Bible says, 08:16 "My people perish for lack of knowledge." 08:18 Lack of knowledge is a pretty dangerous situation 08:21 to be in. 08:23 Yeah, especially 08:24 if you're holding on to your identity 08:26 even though you don't actually believe it anymore. 08:28 And, you know, two examples you gave, 08:30 the Hindu nationalists, 08:31 they feel threatened with some justification. 08:35 There's a large Muslim minority in India, 08:38 and they're on the border of a radical state 08:41 that's never gotten over partition. 08:43 And here are two nuclear states. 08:46 I believe before... 08:47 Very likely before the end of time, 08:49 they'll have a shot at each other. 08:51 Three times in my lifetime they've gone to war. 08:53 And then you start Islam. 08:56 The Islamic world is under threat 08:59 or at least in the Middle East. 09:01 I mean, it's an open fact that the US 09:05 some policy planners beyond given administration, 09:09 they have an agenda to remake the map there, 09:12 you know, it's basically this Sykes-Picot air 09:15 all over again. 09:17 I'm referring to the British 09:19 and the French foreign ministers 09:20 who divvied up the Middle East. 09:22 There is an inclination 09:26 sharpened by declining resources, 09:28 oil in other parts of the world to move in, 09:31 and so Islam is not totally wrong 09:34 to think that in a political sense, 09:36 at least their home base is under threat. 09:40 And religious groups that are not self assured 09:43 about what they believe in who they are, 09:45 then come under some threat, 09:48 not good. 09:50 And Christianity is not immune to this. 09:52 No, and in the context of tribalism, 09:54 the idea that we are right because we are 09:58 as opposed to 10:00 there's rational reasons or spiritual reasons 10:04 or it's God ordained reasons, 10:07 not thoughtfully thought out reasons or chosen reasons. 10:12 So you end up with we are who we are, 10:15 and we should be allowed to remain who we are 10:18 even if it means 10:20 we have to dominate everyone else to do that. 10:22 Yeah, but we do have to pray, and hope, 10:26 and work towards increasing the knowledge 10:28 and an understanding of the rights of others 10:30 that can sort of defuse this protective antagonistic element 10:34 in the world today, don't you think? 10:36 The reality is 10:37 that if I'm not willing to give freedom to somebody else, 10:41 religious freedom to somebody else, 10:43 I don't end up 10:44 with any religious freedom myself. 10:48 In one of his lectures, 10:49 CS Lewis commented on a revolutionary 10:53 that he could imagine who had murdered people, 10:58 overturned society, 10:59 done all sorts of murder and mayhem 11:01 all in the goal of establishing his idea 11:05 of a perfect society. 11:08 But in the face of God's judgment, 11:09 we recognize that it was futile. 11:11 In our day, I'm sure, 11:14 similarly, that the group like ISIS, 11:16 murderous and destructive to the limit, 11:20 if they could see as they will, 11:21 one day have as futile and murderous 11:24 that really was would be surely very disappointed. 11:28 But we need to recognize that many efforts have come and gone 11:31 to establish the kingdom of God on earth, 11:33 an ideal kingdom 11:35 that all of them are destined for failure 11:37 without recognizing 11:39 that it's in the heart of free will 11:42 the truth is established not by force, 11:45 and the God's kingdom is a spiritual reality now. 11:49 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2019-03-14