Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI190424A
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00:27 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:30 This is a program designed to bring you news, views, 00:33 discussion, and analysis of religious liberty events 00:36 in the US and around the world. 00:39 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:42 And my guest on this program again 00:44 is Dr. John Reeve from Andrews University, 00:49 Church History department. 00:52 Let's talk about churches but today, not ancient history. 00:56 Okay. 00:58 You know, we live in a wild and wonderful world. 01:01 And as it been said by many people correctly, 01:03 this is sort of global community nowadays. 01:05 Sure, global village. Global village. 01:08 Well, the village is getting into dangerous direction 01:10 because there are people that reject a globalism, 01:14 they don't like globalism. 01:15 Well, maybe that's their right, 01:17 we don't want to break down real identities 01:22 in all in the name of globalism. 01:24 But in reality, communication and so on 01:26 is meant that we're a global community. 01:29 Interaction's possible at any point. 01:31 And we do interact. 01:32 And on religious liberty, 01:34 there is interaction between religions on a level 01:36 that I don't think has ever been seen before. 01:39 In the past, interactions between religion 01:42 might have been the crusades going and putting to the sword. 01:45 And, you know, another religious viewpoint, 01:47 not good. 01:49 In a way, it's happening again, 01:51 but we have an ability or a call, I think, 01:54 to work together with other religions, 01:57 not to create syncretism, 02:00 but we have to create a working arrangement 02:03 both to interact, and to coexist, 02:07 and to, I believe, 02:08 protect the principle of religious liberty. 02:10 That's true. 02:12 How can we do that as Christians, 02:13 and you're free to bring in the church history, 02:16 you know, has it been that good in the past, 02:18 have Christians always or Christian nations, 02:21 Christian communities led the way on this? 02:24 Well, actually, no, 02:27 Christianity was very interested 02:30 in freedom of Christianity. 02:31 Yes. 02:33 But was often not interested in freedom of religion. 02:36 And the distinction is very important. 02:38 Do I value my ability 02:41 to worship God the way I want to 02:43 or do I value the ability of humans 02:46 to worship God the way any way they want to? 02:50 So it is subjective versus generalize 02:54 to the recognition that 02:56 if I'm going to have my freedom, 02:58 I really should be providing you 03:00 with your freedom as well. 03:02 That part was not... 03:04 And you said it very well. 03:05 The way I comment on a lot of what's happening 03:10 in the United States, in particular, 03:12 a lot of talk of religion, and with the certain faction. 03:15 Now, in the ascendancy, 03:16 I see them going for religious entitlement. 03:19 And I haven't mentioned it before, 03:21 but I think there's a danger in the US at least 03:25 that the Islamic community pushing for the same thing, 03:27 religious entitlement. 03:29 Well, they've certainly pushed forward 03:31 in other portions of the world, where you have a... 03:34 And so they're falling into the same error 03:36 that Christianity did. 03:37 So in that regard, 03:38 I certainly don't think I'm picking on them, 03:41 but I see this dynamic playing out 03:44 not just in Christianity, 03:45 Islam is certainly often aggressively 03:49 pushing for entitlement. 03:50 But I think it's a human weakness 03:52 and many faith groups have exemplified that. 03:54 But it's not good, not for the others. 03:57 No, and in this way, I would... 04:00 I have often argued that 04:02 in the main religions that do that 04:06 are following religions. 04:07 They have really given up 04:09 on the idea of what a religion is for, 04:11 they're now trying to protect 04:13 the boundaries of their own group. 04:15 And so they've ceased to be primarily religion 04:17 and are now just a people group 04:19 that is insisting on their own way. 04:21 And at some level, that's anti-religious. 04:24 Yes, that's a good point. 04:27 But it does come naturally to human beings with... 04:31 In the past, tribal identities, a closed community. 04:36 And ironically, I see in this era of globalism, 04:40 it's sort of precipitating tribalism again. 04:44 Well, sure. And the reality is... 04:46 As a reaction to the other coming at them 04:48 from all directions. 04:49 Well, and part of this has to do with pure numbers. 04:54 When Christians were a tiny minority 04:56 in the Roman Empire, 04:58 they were struggling for the right to be ignored. 05:02 Later, when they were a large minority, 05:06 they were struggling for the right 05:07 to do what they wanted to do in public sphere. 05:10 And then later when they were the majority, 05:13 they were struggling for the right to dictate 05:15 what the public's fear ought to be. 05:17 So if they were right here and right here 05:21 in what they were doing, 05:23 then shouldn't that be right for everyone out? 05:25 So now the concern was not so much 05:28 how do we get freedom for everybody 05:30 to worship as they want to 05:32 as much as how do we get freedom 05:34 for us to worship as we want? 05:36 And how do we get the ability or the power or the authority 05:41 to "instruct others to be like us?" 05:46 Yeah, you made a good point. 05:48 And I've never heard it said that way, 05:49 but you're right on that early Christianity 05:52 was wanting to be ignored. 05:53 Well, of course. 05:55 On a certain level, they were evangelizing. 05:57 Because the opposite of ignoring 05:59 is paying attention to. 06:01 And when Rome paid attention to them, 06:02 they tend to just push them. 06:04 But it explains in a... 06:06 It's a needed explanation is what I've pointed out, 06:10 and I'm diverting a bit from our general topic. 06:12 But, you know, in America today, particularly, 06:15 Canada a little bit and Australia too, 06:17 and all the Western countries, but in America, 06:19 particularly there's this massive debate 06:22 between Christian sensibility 06:25 and the state allowance now 06:30 on gay behavior and gay marriage in particular. 06:33 And it's come to a head with the Supreme Court action 06:35 not too long ago, 06:38 making a determination in the cake case, you know, 06:42 can a Christian be forced to bake a cake 06:46 for a gay couple. 06:49 And, you know, they upheld his right for now. 06:52 But that was an error decision. 06:54 But my point is, you know, while you don't want Christians 06:58 or anyone else force direct against their faith, 07:01 that this is turning the world on its head, 07:03 because I see no evidence in the early Christian Church 07:06 that they were trying to exclude the Romans 07:09 for homosexuality or any other 07:11 of a whole basket of pagan practices or whatever. 07:14 They were trying to be ignored. 07:16 They would not make a big case 07:18 if they were Christian shopkeeper. 07:20 No, we won't deal with you, 07:22 you're a worshipper of Zeus or whatever 07:24 or you're a temple prostitute or you're... 07:27 No, they were functioning with them as someone 07:32 that was trying to be a good citizen 07:34 and exemplifying Christian graces, 07:37 but not holding, you know, a moral test 07:42 on all their context. 07:44 And it's hard to explain, 07:47 but I really think we're in danger of turning Christian 07:50 into an aggressive public condemnation 07:55 of the non believer by... 07:58 Under the name of religious liberty saying, 08:00 "No, I must have the right to exclude you." 08:03 Yeah, yeah. 08:05 Ramsey with Marlon makes a good point. 08:07 He argues that 08:09 when Christianity took over from Rome, 08:13 Christianity changed more than Rome did. 08:16 And what he means by that 08:17 is Christianity, as it grew up in Roman environments, 08:22 took on the characteristics of the Roman Empire. 08:26 And so when you have the Justinian, 08:29 Roman Christian, Roman Empire enshrined in Roman law now, 08:35 in the big rewriting of all of Roman law 08:38 as a Christian Empire by Justinian 08:40 in the sixth century is characteristic of that. 08:45 They have become Rome. 08:47 And they have become Rome. 08:48 Now they're the ones who say, 08:50 "Nobody else can worship any other way." 08:52 Back here, Rome was saying, 08:54 "Everybody can worship however they want 08:56 as long as they pay attention publicly and officially 09:00 to the Emperor and in Jupiter. 09:02 But then once you get to the Christian situation, 09:05 it's like everybody must do as we do or else. 09:10 And that transition, that's imperial power. 09:13 So were we supposed to evangelize everybody? 09:17 Yes. 09:18 Were we supposed to become the majority? 09:20 Certainly, why not? 09:21 Would we, as the majority, 09:23 then become the persecuting power? 09:26 No, that was never intended, but it happened. 09:28 Yeah, yeah. It happened. 09:30 You're giving me an opportunity to ask you this. 09:33 There's something else 09:34 that has religious liberties ramifications. 09:36 I understand in the early Christian Church 09:40 under Rome before Constantine 09:43 that when a soldiers joins the Christian community, 09:47 they asked him to give up his soldiering. 09:50 Well, that obviously wasn't universal 09:53 because you have all kinds of soldiers that are Christian. 09:58 There's during the Decian persecution, 10:00 you've got the famous story about the soldiers 10:06 that were Christian were to be killed. 10:09 And it's quite a number of them. 10:11 It's true. I do remember that. 10:13 Yeah, there was a problem, 10:15 but maybe it was for a little while, 10:17 in the very earliest part. 10:20 I had read it that maybe it wasn't an edict, 10:22 it was just an encouragement, 10:23 they saw incompatibility between... 10:25 Well, even if it was an edict, it wouldn't be universal 10:27 because there was no universal church. 10:30 The reality that the Christianity grew up 10:33 as a bunch of disparate pieces 10:36 that eventually congealed around the Roman 10:42 understanding of this is a historical reality. 10:44 Right, and then, of course, even to this day, 10:46 Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholicism, 10:48 so even the Roman thread 10:52 was cut between the two. 10:55 Sure, only because Rome was insisting 10:57 on being the only thread. 10:59 Yeah, yeah. 11:01 Now church history is very interesting, 11:02 and I must admit just as a matter of history 11:07 when I look at the Roman Catholic Church 11:08 which has every right to exist, 11:10 you know, under religious liberty rubric, 11:12 you know, I can't object whatever they believe 11:15 or whoever they came to be, 11:16 but just look at it as a historical creature. 11:21 I know that this is basically the shadow 11:24 of the Roman Empire still with us, 11:28 and it's not just religion, 11:29 it's dragged bits of everything with it. 11:33 It's really the leftover the Roman Empire, 11:37 and they're stuck with it. 11:39 And they even called it the Holy Roman Empire. 11:42 And that, you know, the joke, neither holy nor Roman. 11:45 That's right. 11:47 Because it really was based in the Germanic areas. 11:51 But it was an attempt to continue the empire. 11:53 Correct, correct. 11:55 And, of course, all the different Third Reichs 11:59 that have popped up through history 12:01 are also trying to get the mantle of Rome. 12:02 Yeah. 12:04 Just trying to get the power, 12:05 but twisted to our own ends now. 12:07 But the power's what everybody's after. 12:09 Just as you know the Seventh-day Adventist 12:11 inherited the Puritan interest in Daniel 2. 12:15 Like in the Civil War, 12:17 the Fifth Monarchy Men were all fixated on that image. 12:21 But when I look at history today, 12:23 I still believe that the world as a whole 12:26 hasn't reformulated itself adequately 12:28 after the demise of the Roman Empire. 12:31 And the image of Daniel 2, I think, 12:35 visualizes that very well, mixture of iron and of clay, 12:38 the leftover Roman Empire, 12:40 it's still sort of got its tentacles 12:43 through the world order, 12:44 and we haven't really passed on to anything else. 12:48 Well, it's not without reason 12:52 that the state buildings of America. 12:57 I was going to say that, you noticed it. 13:01 I mean, it's just fine, and, you know... 13:03 The Jeffersonian architecture 13:04 was based on the classical world. 13:06 I made a comment to someone in Washington once and I said, 13:10 "It shows what a Greek or Roman fascination 13:12 will do to you." 13:14 But, you know, it was done legitimately 13:16 because that was of Roman, 13:19 particular, the last great empire. 13:21 And they consciously were trying to establish the US 13:25 as the new Rome. 13:28 I don't think it's happened nor should have happened 13:30 because Rome was a different sort of an empire. 13:33 And it was very cruel by and large, 13:36 even though the cruelty enabled them 13:38 to have wonderful roads systems and so on. 13:42 But ironically, 13:43 Rome was almost always motivated by the power, 13:47 yes, but by the money. 13:49 The money and the power, 13:50 and was that the money for the power 13:52 or was that the power for the money 13:53 that's up for grabs, 13:55 but all the laws are always focusing in 13:58 on how do we get the benefit of commerce. 14:02 Well, it wasn't quite capitalistic, 14:03 but it was monotheistic. 14:05 And the parallel that I would draw though, 14:08 I don't believe that it's a good parallel 14:09 between the US and the Roman Empire. 14:12 I mean, there's always some parallels to be drawn. 14:14 But I think the US' parallel is to Venice, 14:18 the trading empire. 14:20 Could very well be, yeah. 14:21 We'll take a short break, we'll be back to continue 14:23 this very interesting discussion. |
Revised 2019-03-14