Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is a program designed
to bring you news, views,
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discussion, and analysis
of religious liberty events
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in the US and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest on
this program again
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is Dr. John Reeve
from Andrews University,
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Church History department.
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Let's talk about churches
but today, not ancient history.
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Okay.
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You know, we live in a
wild and wonderful world.
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And as it been said
by many people correctly,
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this is sort of
global community nowadays.
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Sure, global
village. Global village.
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Well, the village is
getting into dangerous direction
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because there are
people that reject a globalism,
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they don't like globalism.
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Well, maybe that's their right,
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we don't want to
break down real identities
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in all in the name of globalism.
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But in reality,
communication and so on
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is meant that
we're a global community.
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Interaction's
possible at any point.
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And we do interact.
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And on religious liberty,
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there is interaction
between religions on a level
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that I don't think
has ever been seen before.
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In the past,
interactions between religion
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might have been the crusades
going and putting to the sword.
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And, you know,
another religious viewpoint,
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not good.
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In a way, it's happening again,
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but we have an
ability or a call, I think,
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to work together
with other religions,
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not to create syncretism,
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but we have to
create a working arrangement
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both to
interact, and to coexist,
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and to, I believe,
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protect the
principle of religious liberty.
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That's true.
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How can we do
that as Christians,
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and you're free to
bring in the church history,
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you know, has it been
that good in the past,
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have Christians
always or Christian nations,
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Christian
communities led the way on this?
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Well, actually, no,
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Christianity was very interested
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in freedom of Christianity.
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Yes.
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But was often not interested
in freedom of religion.
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And the
distinction is very important.
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Do I value my ability
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to worship God the way I want to
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or do I value
the ability of humans
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to worship God the
way any way they want to?
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So it is
subjective versus generalize
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to the recognition that
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if I'm going to have my freedom,
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I really should be providing you
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with your freedom as well.
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That part was not...
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And you said it very well.
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The way I comment on a
lot of what's happening
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in the United
States, in particular,
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a lot of talk of religion,
and with the certain faction.
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Now, in the ascendancy,
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I see them going for
religious entitlement.
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And I haven't
mentioned it before,
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but I think there's a
danger in the US at least
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that the Islamic community
pushing for the same thing,
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religious entitlement.
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Well, they've
certainly pushed forward
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in other portions of the
world, where you have a...
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And so they're
falling into the same error
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that Christianity did.
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So in that regard,
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I certainly don't
think I'm picking on them,
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but I see this
dynamic playing out
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not just in Christianity,
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Islam is
certainly often aggressively
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pushing for entitlement.
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But I think
it's a human weakness
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and many faith groups
have exemplified that.
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But it's not good,
not for the others.
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No, and in this way, I would...
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I have often argued that
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in the main
religions that do that
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are following religions.
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They have really given up
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on the idea of
what a religion is for,
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they're now trying to protect
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the boundaries
of their own group.
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And so they've ceased
to be primarily religion
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and are now just a people group
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that is
insisting on their own way.
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And at some level,
that's anti-religious.
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Yes, that's a good point.
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But it does come naturally
to human beings with...
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In the past, tribal
identities, a closed community.
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And ironically, I see
in this era of globalism,
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it's sort of
precipitating tribalism again.
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Well, sure. And
the reality is...
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As a reaction to
the other coming at them
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from all directions.
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Well, and part of this
has to do with pure numbers.
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When Christians
were a tiny minority
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in the Roman Empire,
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they were struggling
for the right to be ignored.
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Later, when they
were a large minority,
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they were
struggling for the right
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to do what they wanted
to do in public sphere.
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And then later when
they were the majority,
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they were struggling
for the right to dictate
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what the
public's fear ought to be.
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So if they were
right here and right here
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in what they were doing,
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then shouldn't that be
right for everyone out?
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So now the
concern was not so much
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how do we get
freedom for everybody
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to worship as they want to
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as much as how do we get freedom
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for us to worship as we want?
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And how do we get the ability
or the power or the authority
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to "instruct
others to be like us?"
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Yeah, you made a good point.
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And I've never
heard it said that way,
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but you're right on
that early Christianity
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was wanting to be ignored.
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Well, of course.
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On a certain level,
they were evangelizing.
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Because the opposite of ignoring
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is paying attention to.
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And when Rome
paid attention to them,
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they tend to just push them.
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But it explains in a...
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It's a needed explanation
is what I've pointed out,
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and I'm diverting a
bit from our general topic.
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But, you know, in
America today, particularly,
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Canada a little
bit and Australia too,
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and all the Western
countries, but in America,
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particularly
there's this massive debate
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between Christian sensibility
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and the state allowance now
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on gay behavior and
gay marriage in particular.
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And it's come to a head
with the Supreme Court action
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not too long ago,
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making a determination
in the cake case, you know,
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can a Christian be
forced to bake a cake
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for a gay couple.
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And, you know, they
upheld his right for now.
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But that was an error decision.
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But my point is, you know,
while you don't want Christians
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or anyone else force
direct against their faith,
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that this is turning
the world on its head,
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because I see no evidence
in the early Christian Church
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that they were
trying to exclude the Romans
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for homosexuality or any other
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of a whole basket of
pagan practices or whatever.
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They were trying to be ignored.
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They would not make a big case
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if they were
Christian shopkeeper.
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No, we won't deal with you,
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you're a
worshipper of Zeus or whatever
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or you're a temple
prostitute or you're...
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No, they were
functioning with them as someone
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that was trying
to be a good citizen
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and exemplifying
Christian graces,
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but not holding,
you know, a moral test
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on all their context.
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And it's hard to explain,
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but I really think we're
in danger of turning Christian
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into an aggressive
public condemnation
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of the non believer by...
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Under the name of
religious liberty saying,
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"No, I must have the
right to exclude you."
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Yeah, yeah.
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Ramsey with Marlon
makes a good point.
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He argues that
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when Christianity
took over from Rome,
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Christianity
changed more than Rome did.
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And what he means by that
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is Christianity, as it
grew up in Roman environments,
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took on the characteristics
of the Roman Empire.
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And so when you
have the Justinian,
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Roman Christian, Roman Empire
enshrined in Roman law now,
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in the big
rewriting of all of Roman law
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as a Christian
Empire by Justinian
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in the sixth century
is characteristic of that.
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They have become Rome.
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And they have become Rome.
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Now they're the ones who say,
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"Nobody else can
worship any other way."
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Back here, Rome was saying,
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"Everybody can
worship however they want
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as long as they pay attention
publicly and officially
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to the Emperor and in Jupiter.
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But then once you get
to the Christian situation,
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it's like everybody
must do as we do or else.
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And that transition,
that's imperial power.
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So were we supposed
to evangelize everybody?
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Yes.
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Were we supposed to
become the majority?
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Certainly, why not?
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Would we, as the majority,
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then become the
persecuting power?
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No, that was never
intended, but it happened.
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Yeah, yeah. It happened.
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You're giving me an
opportunity to ask you this.
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There's something else
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that has religious
liberties ramifications.
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I understand in the
early Christian Church
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under Rome before Constantine
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that when a soldiers
joins the Christian community,
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they asked him to
give up his soldiering.
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Well, that
obviously wasn't universal
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because you have all kinds
of soldiers that are Christian.
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There's during the
Decian persecution,
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you've got the famous
story about the soldiers
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that were
Christian were to be killed.
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And it's quite a number of them.
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It's true. I do remember that.
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Yeah, there was a problem,
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but maybe it was
for a little while,
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in the very earliest part.
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I had read it that
maybe it wasn't an edict,
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it was just an encouragement,
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they saw
incompatibility between...
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Well, even if it was an
edict, it wouldn't be universal
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because there was
no universal church.
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The reality that
the Christianity grew up
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as a bunch of disparate pieces
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that eventually
congealed around the Roman
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understanding of this
is a historical reality.
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Right, and then, of
course, even to this day,
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Eastern Orthodox
and Roman Catholicism,
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so even the Roman thread
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was cut between the two.
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Sure, only
because Rome was insisting
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on being the only thread.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Now church history
is very interesting,
00:11:01.09\00:11:02.72
and I must admit just
as a matter of history
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when I look at the
Roman Catholic Church
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which has every right to exist,
00:11:08.93\00:11:10.43
you know, under
religious liberty rubric,
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you know, I can't
object whatever they believe
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or whoever they came to be,
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but just look at it
as a historical creature.
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I know that this is
basically the shadow
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of the Roman
Empire still with us,
00:11:24.78\00:11:28.38
and it's not just religion,
00:11:28.42\00:11:29.75
it's dragged bits
of everything with it.
00:11:29.78\00:11:33.39
It's really the
leftover the Roman Empire,
00:11:33.42\00:11:37.26
and they're stuck with it.
00:11:37.29\00:11:39.06
And they even called
it the Holy Roman Empire.
00:11:39.09\00:11:42.60
And that, you know, the
joke, neither holy nor Roman.
00:11:42.63\00:11:45.00
That's right.
00:11:45.03\00:11:47.57
Because it really was
based in the Germanic areas.
00:11:47.60\00:11:51.27
But it was an attempt
to continue the empire.
00:11:51.31\00:11:53.58
Correct, correct.
00:11:53.61\00:11:55.94
And, of course, all
the different Third Reichs
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that have popped
up through history
00:11:59.41\00:12:00.98
are also trying to
get the mantle of Rome.
00:12:01.02\00:12:02.62
Yeah.
00:12:02.65\00:12:03.99
Just trying to get the power,
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but twisted to our own ends now.
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But the power's
what everybody's after.
00:12:07.82\00:12:09.66
Just as you know the
Seventh-day Adventist
00:12:09.69\00:12:11.86
inherited the
Puritan interest in Daniel 2.
00:12:11.89\00:12:15.53
Like in the Civil War,
00:12:15.56\00:12:17.27
the Fifth Monarchy Men
were all fixated on that image.
00:12:17.30\00:12:21.14
But when I look
at history today,
00:12:21.17\00:12:23.81
I still believe
that the world as a whole
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hasn't
reformulated itself adequately
00:12:26.37\00:12:28.84
after the demise
of the Roman Empire.
00:12:28.88\00:12:31.58
And the image of
Daniel 2, I think,
00:12:31.61\00:12:35.45
visualizes that very well,
mixture of iron and of clay,
00:12:35.48\00:12:38.75
the leftover Roman Empire,
00:12:38.79\00:12:40.22
it's still sort
of got its tentacles
00:12:40.26\00:12:43.26
through the world order,
00:12:43.29\00:12:44.63
and we haven't really
passed on to anything else.
00:12:44.66\00:12:48.30
Well, it's not without reason
00:12:48.33\00:12:52.27
that the state
buildings of America.
00:12:52.30\00:12:57.04
I was going to say
that, you noticed it.
00:12:57.07\00:13:01.58
I mean, it's just
fine, and, you know...
00:13:01.61\00:13:03.18
The Jeffersonian architecture
00:13:03.21\00:13:04.95
was based on
the classical world.
00:13:04.98\00:13:06.85
I made a comment to someone
in Washington once and I said,
00:13:06.88\00:13:10.02
"It shows what a
Greek or Roman fascination
00:13:10.05\00:13:12.22
will do to you."
00:13:12.25\00:13:14.06
But, you know, it
was done legitimately
00:13:14.09\00:13:16.66
because that was of Roman,
00:13:16.69\00:13:19.73
particular, the
last great empire.
00:13:19.76\00:13:21.66
And they consciously were
trying to establish the US
00:13:21.70\00:13:25.10
as the new Rome.
00:13:25.13\00:13:28.57
I don't think it's happened
nor should have happened
00:13:28.60\00:13:30.51
because Rome was a
different sort of an empire.
00:13:30.54\00:13:33.14
And it was very
cruel by and large,
00:13:33.17\00:13:36.18
even though the
cruelty enabled them
00:13:36.21\00:13:38.45
to have wonderful
roads systems and so on.
00:13:38.48\00:13:41.98
But ironically,
00:13:42.02\00:13:43.72
Rome was almost always
motivated by the power,
00:13:43.75\00:13:47.76
yes, but by the money.
00:13:47.79\00:13:49.59
The money and the power,
00:13:49.62\00:13:50.96
and was that the
money for the power
00:13:50.99\00:13:52.36
or was that the
power for the money
00:13:52.39\00:13:53.83
that's up for grabs,
00:13:53.86\00:13:55.20
but all the laws
are always focusing in
00:13:55.23\00:13:58.17
on how do we get
the benefit of commerce.
00:13:58.20\00:14:02.44
Well, it wasn't
quite capitalistic,
00:14:02.47\00:14:03.81
but it was monotheistic.
00:14:03.84\00:14:05.17
And the parallel
that I would draw though,
00:14:05.21\00:14:08.08
I don't believe
that it's a good parallel
00:14:08.11\00:14:09.94
between the US
and the Roman Empire.
00:14:09.98\00:14:12.61
I mean, there's always
some parallels to be drawn.
00:14:12.65\00:14:14.62
But I think the US'
parallel is to Venice,
00:14:14.65\00:14:18.29
the trading empire.
00:14:18.32\00:14:20.52
Could very well be, yeah.
00:14:20.56\00:14:21.89
We'll take a short
break, we'll be back to continue
00:14:21.92\00:14:23.93
this very
interesting discussion.
00:14:23.96\00:14:25.49