Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI190423A
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00:27 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:29 This is a program for you, 00:31 giving you up-to-date news, information, discussion, 00:34 and analysis of religious liberty events 00:37 in the US and around the world. 00:39 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty magazine. 00:43 And my guest on this program is Professor John Reeve, 00:46 Chair of the Church History department 00:50 at Andrews University. 00:52 Yes. 00:54 Let's try something, 00:56 when we talk about religious liberty, 00:58 the counter of it often, 00:59 especially in the West is a faction, 01:02 sometimes a whole government 01:03 is dedicated toward re-moralizing society 01:07 and projecting a particular, 01:09 usually, aspect of faith on the community. 01:12 But, you know, how can we be so sure 01:15 that an individual or a faction or a government, 01:17 when it's dealing with faith matters 01:19 really even knows what's right. 01:22 They probably think so. 01:24 But, you know, what's the back up to that? 01:26 We were talking in the last... 01:28 In a recent program about divine right of kings. 01:31 Yes. 01:32 You know, what gives that certainty 01:33 that God is behind you in everything you do 01:36 and say and demand of others? 01:38 Well, I can't speak to all religions in this, 01:41 but within Christianity, I do a lot of reading 01:45 in the second and third centuries. 01:47 And there, you have an attitude 01:50 that takes over very early on in Christian history 01:53 that the church is always right. 01:57 Irenaeus argues this in his... 01:59 Against heresies. 02:00 He consistently argues 02:03 that there's one right reading of scripture 02:04 and that is the reading of the church. 02:06 Origen takes this on 02:08 in the beginning of his On First Principles, 02:10 the preface to that work, 02:13 and this is his most significant work. 02:16 The preface of that work, 02:17 he argues that when the church has spoken, 02:20 the church is right and there's no arguing with it. 02:23 And so Titoli and 02:25 another person from the early third century, 02:27 he makes the argument 02:29 that a heretic not only is wrong 02:33 but they don't even have right to dispute 02:35 with the church because they're wrong. 02:37 So the idea that the church is right, 02:39 the church is always right, 02:41 and this attitude becomes a, "We are always right, 02:46 therefore whatever we do is right, 02:48 whatever we say is right." 02:49 This becomes the attitude of totalitarianism. 02:51 I was at a meeting at Catholic University 02:55 where Cardinal Dolan actually paused 02:58 in his presentation of religious liberty 02:59 and he looked around at his Catholic audience, 03:02 very few others Catholics there, 03:04 and he said, "You know," he says, 03:05 "The church once held that era has no rights." 03:09 Yeah, and that's totalitarianism. 03:10 If you're wrong by definition, 03:12 you have lost your right to be wrong. 03:14 That's correct. 03:16 And that was asserted in the third century 03:18 by Tertullian in so many words, 03:21 and, of course, acted upon by many administrators 03:24 in the future from the third century. 03:27 So all the way through... 03:28 And I think what you're saying also 03:30 is borne out in the attitude of the church. 03:34 You can say Rome, but, you know, 03:36 it was the main line for hundreds of years, 03:39 almost thousand plus. 03:42 The idea that whatever the church said, 03:45 scripture said was valid, not what you thought it said 03:49 because not what you're reading was uninformed and ignorant, 03:52 and you can read those same words, 03:54 it doesn't matter what you think 03:55 the scriptures say, 03:58 it's what the church says they say. 04:00 And this is one of the big hermeneutics 04:03 throughout Christian history 04:05 is there's no private interpretation of scripture. 04:07 You can't have one thing, and I have another thing, 04:08 another guy says another thing. 04:10 So there's no subjectivity, 04:12 total subjectivity on interpretation of scripture. 04:14 And, of course, the failsafe that they've always used 04:17 was therefore it's what the Church teaches. 04:20 The problem with that is if the church makes a mistake, 04:24 how does the church correct itself from scripture? 04:26 Let me use a golf analogy on you. 04:28 You like to golf? 04:29 I used to. 04:31 I enjoy golf. I'm a terrible golfer. 04:33 Until I got a bad back from doing it. 04:35 Oh, well, okay, bad backs... 04:37 You know about bad backs? 04:38 Yeah, I've had a couple of back surgeries myself, 04:40 and I'm waiting to get back to golf. 04:42 When I play golf, 04:44 I played what I call adventure golf, 04:46 you know, when I, you know, most people... 04:48 Off the course? 04:49 Yeah, you know, 04:51 most people want to keep in the short grass, 04:52 well, that's not my style. 04:53 When I hit the ball really hard, 04:55 it can go anywhere. 04:56 But it's... 04:58 We have a saying in golf, it's bad golfers' sayings, 05:01 "It's all about he second shot." 05:03 All you need with the first shot 05:04 is distance. 05:06 The second shot, you aim, okay? 05:08 So that second shot is vital. 05:09 if you're are getting your interpretation 05:12 of where you're supposed to go next 05:15 by looking toward the goal, 05:16 i.e., that flag in the little hole 05:19 on that little really short grass on the green, 05:22 everything works fine. 05:23 But if you're getting your orientation 05:26 about where you're going 05:27 by looking back to where you've come from. 05:30 You can see right away that if you go... 05:33 Okay, so I hook the ball 05:36 and I'm way, way out to the left here, 05:38 but I'm going to get my orientation 05:40 of where I'm going 05:41 by looking back where I came from. 05:42 Suddenly, my nick shot 05:44 isn't going anywhere near the hole, 05:45 it's going way out that way. 05:47 Two or three shots later, 05:48 I can be completely off the golf course. 05:49 Well, you know, since this program 05:51 deals with church date issues. 05:53 Yes. 05:55 Under the general religious liberty, 05:57 I'll draw a parallel. 05:58 It seems to me, the Roman Catholic church 06:02 in the real world has discovered 06:05 or realized that it acted improperly 06:07 at different points, 06:09 and there was a document called Memory and Reconciliation, 06:12 where they "apologize" 06:14 for the persecution of the Jews, 06:17 for the inquisition, and some other evils. 06:21 But they did it in a way that was sort of weasley. 06:24 They said that just as Christ, pure and undefiled, 06:28 and uncapable of error 06:29 took upon Himself the sins of fallen human beings, 06:32 the magisterium of the church, 06:34 pure and undefiled, and uncapable of error 06:36 will apologize for the actions of some of its adherence. 06:41 It's sort of a non-apology. 06:43 But the parallel that I would draw, 06:46 there's a danger even in the US we develop that thinking. 06:49 You know, there's a vibrant debate 06:53 that develops every time a public figure 06:55 appears to apologize for actions of the past. 06:59 And I've heard it said 07:00 by even presidential candidates, 07:02 I will never apologize for America. 07:05 You know why? Why not? 07:07 It's not a divine entity. 07:12 It seems to me in the normal human sense, 07:15 you're stronger for recognizing an error, 07:17 and correcting, and going on. 07:19 But as you say, you create a conundrum 07:22 if, no matter what's happened in the past, 07:24 you can't acknowledge it and correct, then you really, 07:28 at worst or at best, rather, you're off the course, 07:32 even though you think you're heading 07:33 in the right direction. 07:34 There's an interesting illustration of this 07:37 in the liturgical history. 07:39 That's the study of how the church worships. 07:43 And, of course, 07:44 every church has a tendency to say, 07:46 "Well, we worship the way 07:48 Jesus instructed the disciples to worship. 07:50 That's how we worship." 07:52 But when you look at the history of that claim, 07:55 you see how the worship changes 07:58 between second and third century, 07:59 between third and fourth century, 08:01 and fourth and fifth century. 08:02 But at every stage it says, "No, we're worshiping 08:04 exactly like Jesus taught the disciples to worship, 08:06 even though it's always changing." 08:08 So it has never changed 08:10 is a statement that is made over and over again 08:12 in church history, 08:14 when in fact it's demonstrably changed. 08:16 In your lifetime. Yeah, that's right. 08:19 It's not a slow process. 08:21 Yeah, so the church orders of the early church, you know, 08:25 you go from the Didache to the Didascalia 08:29 and then on to the Constitution 08:32 of the 12 apostles, etcetera, etcetera. 08:34 All of these things are written 08:35 at different times in different places 08:36 and present a different liturgy, 08:38 a different order of who's in charge, 08:41 and who's doing which things. 08:43 But they all claim 08:45 that this is what Jesus taught the apostles. 08:47 So they all claim that it's never changed. 08:50 So how can an individual deal with this, 08:54 both with the larger church... 08:57 I mean, they have denominations, 08:58 but the larger church thinking 09:00 that may have been sidetracked by these assumptions 09:04 that are dangerous or in a country 09:07 like the United States or Australia, 09:09 whatever that is not formally any particular religion, 09:13 but we try to act morally, 09:15 and before God, who do we respond to? 09:18 Do we take the church authority? 09:20 Do we take the state authority on spiritual matters? 09:23 What do we do? 09:25 Well, if you're asking me, I would say we got to go back 09:27 to see what scripture actually says. 09:29 What were the words of Jesus? 09:31 What were the context in which He spoke to them? 09:35 How can we get principles from what he meant 09:37 and apply them to our own situation today, 09:40 actually going to what was taught 09:43 by the prophets of God, and... 09:44 It sounds like Protestantism, or the Protestant Reformation. 09:47 Sure, sure. 09:48 Yeah, nothing factitious. 09:50 But that was the determination 09:54 that came out of increased learning, 09:57 and printing, and all the rest, 09:58 and people started reading the Bible. 10:00 And they realized that's the only correct way 10:02 the individual can respond to this. 10:04 Well, the difference in distance 10:06 between the way the church was acting in the 15th century 10:11 and what you read in the New Testament 10:14 is clear to every reader. 10:16 So if something never changed and it's always been right, 10:20 well, then how did it end up so different 10:23 from what we read in the New Testament? 10:24 Yeah. 10:26 Well, and even today, I'm afraid, 10:28 way too few people that call themselves Christians 10:31 are very familiar with the Bible. 10:33 They should be reading it more. 10:36 All the surveys I've seen, you know, 10:37 the abysmal ignorance on things as basic as, 10:40 you know, David and Goliath, 10:41 they don't know just the simple stories, 10:44 which tells me that it's not generally read. 10:47 I'm afraid it's like, you know, 10:50 you and I are both Seventh-day Adventists. 10:51 From the beginnings of our church 10:53 had a printing, publishing ministry 10:56 and sent books out and around, 10:58 and I often go to sidewalk sales 11:00 or go to people's homes 11:02 and I see some of these books pristine binding 11:04 and all the rest on the shelf. 11:06 I know they're not read, but they're all around. 11:09 You know, the Bible is the... 11:11 Arguably, the most, 11:14 if not one of the most widely distributed books, 11:16 but they're not generally read. 11:18 You know, there's a difference 11:19 between having a Bible on your shelf 11:20 and having a Bible on your head, you know? 11:23 The actual physical taking down and reading the scripture 11:28 is something that needs to be there 11:30 in order to get an ability to see for yourself 11:37 what is being taught in the scripture. 11:38 Yeah, you know, unregulated 11:42 or, you know, if we're not careful, 11:46 that can create such a diversity 11:48 that, you know, the system doesn't work. 11:51 And I think Islam, 11:53 just plucking an example out of the thin air 11:55 suffers a little from that, without sort of a central... 11:59 anything really approaching a central 12:01 sort of a cohesive element to their faith, 12:04 it's a freelance religion all over, 12:08 and the wild and wonderful 12:10 personal interpretations abound. 12:12 Christianity has that too. Sure. 12:15 But I think we've developed this tension 12:16 between the individual and freelance theology 12:19 and the structure for a long time 12:22 in the Catholic church, 12:24 and then the other major denominations, 12:25 but somehow, we need to personalize it more 12:28 without sort of balkanizing the whole thing. 12:31 Well, and I think here 12:34 we must recognize the context in which things were written, 12:37 trying to take and interpret scripture 12:40 without going to the context and what it was written for 12:43 to understanding who it was written for 12:47 divorces you from the content of what was intended. 12:50 So if you're going to be so separated 12:53 from the understanding of the context 12:56 and then you're just interpreting it 12:58 based on how it strikes you, right? 13:00 You read it and you say, "Okay, so that must mean this 13:03 because in my context 13:04 that makes sense of this situation." 13:07 That makes it so nebulous 13:13 that it has no meaning. 13:15 So what is the distinction between reading for context 13:19 and the historical critical method? 13:21 Well, let's be fair. 13:23 The historical critical method, 13:26 the problem with it is the critical part, 13:28 not the historic part. 13:29 I like that. 13:31 Okay, so if I put myself in the driver's seat and say, 13:33 "I always know what's going on, 13:35 and I'm going to judge what can and cannot be true 13:37 from scripture," that's critical, 13:39 and I'm not there. 13:40 But if it's historical, they're saying, 13:42 "Well, I'm trying to understand 13:44 what scripture was intended to mean?" 13:47 So I have to go to the history 13:49 to find out what it was intended to mean. 13:51 And then once I find out what it was intended to mean, 13:53 the history tells me what the principles are 13:57 and then I try to derive principles 13:59 that are applicable to my own situation. 14:00 Yeah, very good. 14:02 We better take a break. 14:03 But if you like this line of logic, 14:08 this is deeper than most people are willing to get into it, 14:11 but it's very relevant 14:12 in a good way to look at this. 14:14 Stay with us. 14:15 We'll be back to continue the discussion. |
Revised 2019-03-14