Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is a program for you,
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giving you up-to-date
news, information, discussion,
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and analysis of
religious liberty events
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in the US and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty magazine.
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And my guest on this
program is Professor John Reeve,
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Chair of the
Church History department
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at Andrews University.
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Yes.
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Let's try something,
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when we talk
about religious liberty,
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the counter of it often,
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especially in the
West is a faction,
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sometimes a whole government
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is dedicated toward
re-moralizing society
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and projecting a particular,
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usually, aspect of
faith on the community.
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But, you know,
how can we be so sure
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that an individual or a
faction or a government,
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when it's dealing
with faith matters
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really even knows what's right.
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They probably think so.
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But, you know,
what's the back up to that?
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We were talking in the last...
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In a recent program
about divine right of kings.
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Yes.
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You know, what
gives that certainty
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that God is behind
you in everything you do
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and say and demand of others?
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Well, I can't speak
to all religions in this,
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but within Christianity,
I do a lot of reading
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in the second
and third centuries.
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And there, you have an attitude
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that takes over very
early on in Christian history
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that the church is always right.
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Irenaeus argues this in his...
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Against heresies.
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He consistently argues
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that there's one
right reading of scripture
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and that is the
reading of the church.
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Origen takes this on
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in the beginning of
his On First Principles,
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the preface to that work,
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and this is his
most significant work.
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The preface of that work,
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he argues that when
the church has spoken,
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the church is right and
there's no arguing with it.
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And so Titoli and
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another person from
the early third century,
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he makes the argument
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that a heretic not only is wrong
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but they don't even
have right to dispute
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with the church
because they're wrong.
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So the idea that
the church is right,
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the church is always right,
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and this attitude
becomes a, "We are always right,
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therefore
whatever we do is right,
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whatever we say is right."
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This becomes the
attitude of totalitarianism.
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I was at a meeting
at Catholic University
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where Cardinal
Dolan actually paused
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in his presentation
of religious liberty
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and he looked around
at his Catholic audience,
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very few others Catholics there,
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and he said,
"You know," he says,
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"The church once held
that era has no rights."
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Yeah, and
that's totalitarianism.
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If you're wrong by definition,
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you have lost
your right to be wrong.
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That's correct.
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And that was
asserted in the third century
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by Tertullian in so many words,
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and, of course, acted
upon by many administrators
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in the future
from the third century.
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So all the way through...
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And I think what
you're saying also
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is borne out in the
attitude of the church.
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You can say Rome, but, you know,
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it was the main line
for hundreds of years,
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almost thousand plus.
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The idea that
whatever the church said,
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scripture said was valid,
not what you thought it said
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because not what you're reading
was uninformed and ignorant,
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and you can read
those same words,
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it doesn't matter what you think
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the scriptures say,
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it's what the
church says they say.
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And this is one of
the big hermeneutics
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throughout Christian history
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is there's no private
interpretation of scripture.
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You can't have one
thing, and I have another thing,
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another guy says another thing.
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So there's no subjectivity,
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total subjectivity on
interpretation of scripture.
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And, of course, the failsafe
that they've always used
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was therefore it's
what the Church teaches.
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The problem with that is
if the church makes a mistake,
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how does the church
correct itself from scripture?
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Let me use a
golf analogy on you.
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You like to golf?
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I used to.
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I enjoy golf. I'm
a terrible golfer.
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Until I got a bad
back from doing it.
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Oh, well, okay, bad backs...
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You know about bad backs?
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Yeah, I've had a couple
of back surgeries myself,
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and I'm waiting
to get back to golf.
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When I play golf,
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I played what I
call adventure golf,
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you know, when I,
you know, most people...
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Off the course?
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Yeah, you know,
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most people want to
keep in the short grass,
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well, that's not my style.
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When I hit the ball really hard,
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it can go anywhere.
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But it's...
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We have a saying in golf,
it's bad golfers' sayings,
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"It's all about he second shot."
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All you need with the first shot
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is distance.
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The second shot, you aim, okay?
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So that second shot is vital.
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if you're are
getting your interpretation
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of where you're
supposed to go next
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by looking toward the goal,
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i.e., that flag
in the little hole
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on that little really
short grass on the green,
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everything works fine.
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But if you're
getting your orientation
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about where you're going
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by looking back to
where you've come from.
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You can see right
away that if you go...
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Okay, so I hook the ball
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and I'm way, way
out to the left here,
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but I'm going to
get my orientation
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of where I'm going
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by looking back
where I came from.
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Suddenly, my nick shot
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isn't going
anywhere near the hole,
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it's going way out that way.
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Two or three shots later,
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I can be completely
off the golf course.
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Well, you know,
since this program
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deals with church date issues.
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Yes.
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Under the general
religious liberty,
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I'll draw a parallel.
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It seems to me, the
Roman Catholic church
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in the real world has discovered
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or realized that
it acted improperly
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at different points,
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and there was a document called
Memory and Reconciliation,
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where they "apologize"
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for the persecution of the Jews,
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for the inquisition,
and some other evils.
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But they did it in a way
that was sort of weasley.
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They said that just as
Christ, pure and undefiled,
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and uncapable of error
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took upon Himself the
sins of fallen human beings,
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the magisterium of the church,
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pure and undefiled,
and uncapable of error
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will apologize for the actions
of some of its adherence.
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It's sort of a non-apology.
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But the parallel
that I would draw,
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there's a danger even in
the US we develop that thinking.
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You know,
there's a vibrant debate
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that develops every
time a public figure
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appears to apologize
for actions of the past.
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And I've heard it said
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by even presidential candidates,
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I will never
apologize for America.
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You know why? Why not?
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It's not a divine entity.
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It seems to me in
the normal human sense,
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you're stronger for
recognizing an error,
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and correcting, and going on.
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But as you say,
you create a conundrum
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if, no matter what's
happened in the past,
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you can't acknowledge it
and correct, then you really,
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at worst or at best,
rather, you're off the course,
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even though you
think you're heading
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in the right direction.
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There's an
interesting illustration of this
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in the liturgical history.
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That's the study of
how the church worships.
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And, of course,
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every church has
a tendency to say,
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"Well, we worship the way
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Jesus instructed the
disciples to worship.
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That's how we worship."
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But when you look at
the history of that claim,
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you see how the worship changes
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between second
and third century,
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between third
and fourth century,
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and fourth and fifth century.
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But at every stage it
says, "No, we're worshiping
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exactly like Jesus
taught the disciples to worship,
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even though it's
always changing."
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So it has never changed
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is a statement that is
made over and over again
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in church history,
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when in fact it's
demonstrably changed.
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In your lifetime.
Yeah, that's right.
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It's not a slow process.
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Yeah, so the church orders
of the early church, you know,
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you go from the
Didache to the Didascalia
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and then on to the Constitution
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of the 12
apostles, etcetera, etcetera.
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All of these things are written
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at different times
in different places
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and present a different liturgy,
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a different order
of who's in charge,
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and who's doing which things.
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But they all claim
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that this is what
Jesus taught the apostles.
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So they all claim
that it's never changed.
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So how can an
individual deal with this,
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both with the larger church...
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I mean, they have denominations,
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but the larger church thinking
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that may have been
sidetracked by these assumptions
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that are
dangerous or in a country
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like the United
States or Australia,
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whatever that is not formally
any particular religion,
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but we try to act morally,
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and before God,
who do we respond to?
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Do we take the church authority?
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Do we take the state
authority on spiritual matters?
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What do we do?
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Well, if you're asking me,
I would say we got to go back
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to see what
scripture actually says.
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What were the words of Jesus?
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What were the context
in which He spoke to them?
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How can we get
principles from what he meant
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and apply them to
our own situation today,
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actually going
to what was taught
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by the prophets of God, and...
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It sounds like Protestantism,
or the Protestant Reformation.
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Sure, sure.
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Yeah, nothing factitious.
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But that was the determination
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that came out of
increased learning,
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and printing, and all the rest,
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and people
started reading the Bible.
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And they realized
that's the only correct way
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the individual
can respond to this.
00:10:02.90\00:10:04.60
Well, the difference in distance
00:10:04.63\00:10:06.17
between the way the church
was acting in the 15th century
00:10:06.20\00:10:11.11
and what you read
in the New Testament
00:10:11.14\00:10:14.54
is clear to every reader.
00:10:14.58\00:10:16.44
So if something never changed
and it's always been right,
00:10:16.48\00:10:20.92
well, then how did
it end up so different
00:10:20.95\00:10:23.25
from what we read
in the New Testament?
00:10:23.28\00:10:24.69
Yeah.
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Well, and even
today, I'm afraid,
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way too few people that
call themselves Christians
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are very
familiar with the Bible.
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They should be reading it more.
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All the surveys
I've seen, you know,
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the abysmal ignorance
on things as basic as,
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you know, David and Goliath,
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they don't know
just the simple stories,
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which tells me that
it's not generally read.
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I'm afraid it's like, you know,
00:10:47.94\00:10:50.38
you and I are both
Seventh-day Adventists.
00:10:50.41\00:10:51.81
From the
beginnings of our church
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had a printing,
publishing ministry
00:10:53.92\00:10:56.18
and sent books out and around,
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and I often go to sidewalk sales
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or go to people's homes
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and I see some of
these books pristine binding
00:11:02.26\00:11:04.93
and all the rest on the shelf.
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I know they're not
read, but they're all around.
00:11:06.36\00:11:09.23
You know, the Bible is the...
00:11:09.26\00:11:11.90
Arguably, the most,
00:11:11.93\00:11:14.00
if not one of the most
widely distributed books,
00:11:14.04\00:11:16.71
but they're not generally read.
00:11:16.74\00:11:18.21
You know, there's a difference
00:11:18.24\00:11:19.57
between having a
Bible on your shelf
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and having a Bible
on your head, you know?
00:11:20.98\00:11:23.28
The actual physical taking
down and reading the scripture
00:11:23.31\00:11:28.38
is something
that needs to be there
00:11:28.42\00:11:30.82
in order to get an
ability to see for yourself
00:11:30.85\00:11:37.03
what is being
taught in the scripture.
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Yeah, you know, unregulated
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or, you know, if
we're not careful,
00:11:42.83\00:11:46.60
that can create such a diversity
00:11:46.63\00:11:48.90
that, you know, the
system doesn't work.
00:11:48.94\00:11:51.77
And I think Islam,
00:11:51.81\00:11:53.21
just plucking an
example out of the thin air
00:11:53.24\00:11:55.91
suffers a little from that,
without sort of a central...
00:11:55.94\00:11:59.35
anything really
approaching a central
00:11:59.38\00:12:01.92
sort of a cohesive
element to their faith,
00:12:01.95\00:12:04.75
it's a freelance
religion all over,
00:12:04.79\00:12:08.32
and the wild and wonderful
00:12:08.36\00:12:10.03
personal interpretations abound.
00:12:10.06\00:12:12.26
Christianity has that too. Sure.
00:12:12.29\00:12:15.06
But I think we've
developed this tension
00:12:15.10\00:12:16.77
between the individual
and freelance theology
00:12:16.80\00:12:19.40
and the
structure for a long time
00:12:19.43\00:12:22.60
in the Catholic church,
00:12:22.64\00:12:23.97
and then the other
major denominations,
00:12:24.01\00:12:25.64
but somehow, we need
to personalize it more
00:12:25.67\00:12:28.54
without sort of
balkanizing the whole thing.
00:12:28.58\00:12:31.58
Well, and I think here
00:12:31.61\00:12:33.98
we must recognize the context
in which things were written,
00:12:34.02\00:12:37.75
trying to take and
interpret scripture
00:12:37.79\00:12:40.26
without going to the context
and what it was written for
00:12:40.29\00:12:43.36
to understanding
who it was written for
00:12:43.39\00:12:47.36
divorces you from the
content of what was intended.
00:12:47.40\00:12:50.80
So if you're
going to be so separated
00:12:50.83\00:12:53.40
from the
understanding of the context
00:12:53.44\00:12:56.44
and then you're
just interpreting it
00:12:56.47\00:12:58.07
based on how it
strikes you, right?
00:12:58.11\00:13:00.88
You read it and you say,
"Okay, so that must mean this
00:13:00.91\00:13:03.45
because in my context
00:13:03.48\00:13:04.81
that makes sense
of this situation."
00:13:04.85\00:13:07.85
That makes it so nebulous
00:13:07.88\00:13:13.69
that it has no meaning.
00:13:13.72\00:13:15.09
So what is the distinction
between reading for context
00:13:15.12\00:13:19.43
and the
historical critical method?
00:13:19.46\00:13:21.93
Well, let's be fair.
00:13:21.96\00:13:23.87
The historical critical method,
00:13:23.90\00:13:26.37
the problem with it
is the critical part,
00:13:26.40\00:13:28.30
not the historic part.
00:13:28.34\00:13:29.67
I like that.
00:13:29.70\00:13:31.04
Okay, so if I put myself
in the driver's seat and say,
00:13:31.07\00:13:33.48
"I always know what's going on,
00:13:33.51\00:13:35.14
and I'm going to judge
what can and cannot be true
00:13:35.18\00:13:37.65
from
scripture," that's critical,
00:13:37.68\00:13:39.48
and I'm not there.
00:13:39.51\00:13:40.85
But if it's
historical, they're saying,
00:13:40.88\00:13:42.58
"Well, I'm trying to understand
00:13:42.62\00:13:44.55
what scripture
was intended to mean?"
00:13:44.59\00:13:47.12
So I have to go to the history
00:13:47.16\00:13:49.09
to find out what it
was intended to mean.
00:13:49.12\00:13:51.06
And then once I find out
what it was intended to mean,
00:13:51.09\00:13:53.76
the history tells me
what the principles are
00:13:53.80\00:13:57.10
and then I try
to derive principles
00:13:57.13\00:13:59.20
that are applicable
to my own situation.
00:13:59.23\00:14:00.94
Yeah, very good.
00:14:00.97\00:14:02.30
We better take a break.
00:14:02.34\00:14:03.84
But if you like
this line of logic,
00:14:03.87\00:14:08.14
this is deeper than most people
are willing to get into it,
00:14:08.18\00:14:10.98
but it's very relevant
00:14:11.01\00:14:12.65
in a good way to look at this.
00:14:12.68\00:14:14.02
Stay with us.
00:14:14.05\00:14:15.38
We'll be back to
continue the discussion.
00:14:15.42\00:14:16.82