Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI190422A
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00:26 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:27 This is a program bringing you news, views, 00:30 discussion, and up-to-date information 00:32 on religious liberty in the US and around the world. 00:35 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:39 And my guest on the program is Dr. John Reeve, 00:43 Chair of the Department of Church History 00:46 at Andrews University in Berrien Springs, Michigan. 00:49 Welcome on the program. Thank you. 00:51 Good to be here with you, Lincoln. 00:54 I'm sure, I'm gonna spring a few things on you, 00:56 and I'm looking forward to an interesting discussion. 00:57 Feel free. 01:00 You know, recently, the United States 01:03 has been involved with what they now call 01:06 preemptive wars. 01:08 And not that it hasn't done similar things in the past 01:12 but now, it's the sort of a philosophy behind it. 01:15 And I know along the way, 01:18 at least around the year 2000, 2001, 01:20 we heard talk of Just War Theory 01:24 that you can trace back 01:26 to Roman Catholicism in the medieval era. 01:31 What's your thought on that? 01:32 Is this something legitimate for a state to act on this 01:37 and/or for Christians 01:39 to sort of buy into this concept? 01:41 Well, the idea of a Just War Theory, 01:43 in a nutshell, 01:44 has to do with whether or not you are being attacked, 01:48 and therefore need to defend yourself. 01:51 And so the aggressor cannot be the just one 01:56 in the standard Just War Theory. 01:58 But behind the Just War Theory... 01:59 Well, you've just disposed of Iraq. 02:00 Right, well, yeah. I know, I know. 02:02 I was against the Iraq war, but anyway, 02:06 when you go to the roots of the Just War Theory 02:08 as expressed in Christianity, you come up with Augustine. 02:11 And Augustine is, put a different twist on it. 02:14 He argues the Just War Theory has to do 02:17 with whether or not you are a chosen nation by God. 02:22 So a Christian nation chosen by God 02:25 may even be the aggressor and it's still be a Just War. 02:28 So if you're in the right according to God, 02:32 then you can be the aggressor and still be okay. 02:35 So on that basis... 02:36 You've brought it right through to modern day America 02:38 in the Christian nation assumption. 02:40 That's correct. 02:42 The other thing that I think is worth thinking about, 02:45 on Just War, there's a proportionality 02:48 element introduced that even countering an evil, 02:53 you know, in militarily opposing it, 02:56 you wouldn't use forces out of proportion 02:59 to what you're trying to stop. 03:01 And I think, where we see that bleed 03:03 through is the idea of how much collateral damage 03:06 is allowed even in a bombing raid. 03:08 And it seems to bother the media in the West a lot 03:13 if to get, say, half a dozen ISIS fighters, 03:17 you know, you kill 200 people living in the neighborhood, 03:22 which is missing a larger point, 03:23 I think, of violence and the danger 03:25 and the evilness itself of war. 03:29 Well, yes. 03:30 And not only that, but the reality is, 03:34 there's this tendency to make those 03:38 that are living around 03:39 or those that the ISIS fighters are hiding among, 03:42 to try to make them other than us, 03:44 trying to make them bad guys, too. 03:46 So when they are killed there, well, yeah, they were killed 03:48 but they were supporting ISIS, 03:50 you know, and then proofing they're supporting ISIS 03:52 is ISIS is there. 03:53 Yeah. 03:55 This Just War get into dehumanizing 03:56 or othering the opponents? 03:59 If the other is evil, 04:01 then whatever you do can be considered just. 04:04 And that's a really, really dangerous idea. 04:08 Now what I'm trying to throw in here is, 04:10 Paul's often repeated and as often misused statements 04:15 about how the state exercises the sword not in vain 04:19 because they're doing it on behalf of God. 04:23 And that's true to a large degree, 04:26 but it's not necessarily true when the State asks you 04:29 to do something contrary to God's principles 04:32 or His directives. 04:34 Well, and you're referring to Romans 13, 04:36 and in the context of Romans, 04:38 Paul is really trying to make the case 04:42 that Christianity does not make bad citizens. 04:48 Christianity makes good citizens. 04:50 And at least that's a part of Revelation... 04:53 Of Romans 12 through 15. 04:57 And in 13, the arguments he's making there is, 05:01 "We're going to be the best citizens 05:02 because we're going to not only obey you 05:04 because you're you, we're gonna obey you 05:06 because God put you there." 05:07 We're going to obey you 05:09 because the legitimate authority 05:12 that you exercise as an emperor is backed by God. 05:17 Therefore, we will obey it even if we disagree with it 05:20 on the surface. 05:22 But once you cross the line 05:24 and order us to do things that God insists 05:27 on us not doing it, we're gonna follow God. 05:29 I sometimes, I hope facetiously, 05:32 have said the Paul's comments, 05:34 servile comments because they can easily be used 05:37 to encourage civility of any group, 05:40 particularly Christians to, as in Paul's day. 05:44 He lived under a very abusive Roman administrations. 05:48 Well, and in fact, 05:49 he was killed by Roman administration. 05:51 And he would not argue that God killed him therefore. 05:56 There's a line beyond which you do not go. 06:00 And that is when you are called to obey God rather than man, 06:05 there's that principle, but up to that point, 06:08 you obey man as if he were God. 06:11 And you hinted at it before, Paul and many of his fellows, 06:15 and of course, 06:17 Paul himself before his conversion would persecute. 06:19 They were coming under persecution. 06:20 Correct. So he knew the dynamic. 06:22 But he was persecuted... 06:24 And I think, under threat, 06:25 they were trying to prove their loyalty 06:28 to diminish the very threat itself. 06:31 Sure, sure. 06:32 That's why I say it's civility, I mean, 06:34 we know what they were trying to do. 06:35 It's not so much direct theological point 06:38 is trying to convince 06:40 the authorities they're harmless, 06:42 which they were because they were not 06:43 challenging the authority of the state. 06:46 And this argument goes clear through the apologists 06:48 of the second century. 06:49 You take a look at Justin Martyr 06:51 and his apology that he wrote to the Emperor ostensibly. 06:54 And there, he is making the argument, 06:56 "We're your best citizens, 06:58 we not only obey you, we pray for you. 07:01 We pray for you daily, 07:03 and we're honestly wanting your good fortune, 07:06 as it were." 07:08 And he's not adverse to putting his self up 07:12 against in saying, 07:14 "I'm willing to die for my faith 07:15 because we call him Justin Martyr for a reason." 07:18 He was martyred just a few years 07:20 after he wrote this thing. 07:22 But he's arguing that we will obey you 07:26 as if you were God because God set you up. 07:29 At the same time, 07:31 he's willing to die for his faith, 07:33 by that very... 07:35 Let me throw out two spin-offs from this. 07:37 The first that is a besetting problem 07:39 for the US is this Christian nation idea, 07:41 American exceptionalism. 07:43 And the other that goes further back that, 07:46 I think, it's creeping up on us 07:48 is this whole idea of the Divine Right of Kings. 07:52 Their authority comes directly from God, 07:54 so don't question them. 07:56 Well, and that becomes a problem. 07:59 If the idea is that God has chosen you, 08:03 then whatever you do is good 08:06 or whatever you do is the will of God. 08:08 Then there's no limits, there's no checks, 08:11 there's no balances. 08:12 There's no saying, 08:13 "No, you have misunderstood something about God, 08:17 you have misunderstood something 08:19 about freedom or religion. 08:21 And there are limits to how far you can go 08:24 in a certain direction." 08:25 But Divine Right of Kings says there is no limits. 08:27 Right. 08:29 George Bush in his presidency, he was in a good mood, 08:34 and he wasn't threatening anyone with it. 08:36 But he made a statement that sort of made my hair curl, 08:39 what's left of it curl. 08:40 And he said, "God has blessed America. 08:44 And He couldn't or the United States, 08:46 and He couldn't have blessed more deserving people." 08:51 It's not a blessing. It is a... 08:52 A recognition. Yeah, that's right. 08:54 A confirmation. 08:56 You know, that really gets down to, 08:57 I think, the problem that we have in most religions. 09:01 You have this quid pro quo relationship with God. 09:04 We do our part, then you have to do your part. 09:07 If we are behaving 09:09 or we are sacrificing the right thing 09:11 or we are saying the right words, 09:13 then you have to come through what you think. 09:15 It's just the same relationship 09:17 that Israel wanted to have the Baal. 09:19 We offer the sacrifice, Baal sends the rain. 09:22 Well, that's human nature with all the gods of iron, 09:26 and of clay, and of wood, and so on. 09:28 Yeah, it's really a transaction to get something. 09:31 But that's not quite the same 09:34 as believing you are inherently, 09:36 as Israel was told, a holy nation. 09:38 Right. 09:40 And I do think that there's been a lot of bleed-through 09:43 to the United States that I think... 09:46 Not think, I know it came from the Puritans. 09:48 Right. 09:50 And that's fine, they were good ancestors, 09:52 but we shouldn't pick up a bad assumption they had. 09:55 Well, they were schizophrenic on what to do with the natives. 09:59 You know, do we come here and convert them 10:01 because they're humans, 10:02 or do we come here and drive them out 10:03 because we are Israel and they are the Canaanites? 10:07 So we have this love-hate relationship. 10:10 And so it's slaughter them or convert them, 10:13 and it goes back and forth, back and forth for 150 years. 10:15 Well, as you well know and many of our viewers 10:18 may or may not know, 10:20 Mormonism really has taken that schizophrenia 10:25 to a level that's just amazing. 10:27 And they've made a historical... 10:30 Better be careful. 10:31 As a non believer, I can say fiction. 10:33 But anyhow, whole historical scenario 10:37 to justify the antipathy, 10:39 if you like, between the original inhabitants 10:42 of this continent, 10:44 and later Pseudo-Jewish settlers 10:48 and that this conflict was really the other 10:50 against God's people. 10:52 Yeah, yeah. 10:53 And then in the same vein Manifest Destiny as a doctrine, 10:59 in and of itself, partakes of this idea, 11:02 "We are the people of God, we should rule the whole land, 11:05 so we need to drive out the inhabitants." 11:06 Right. 11:08 So let's just for a minute, 11:09 what makes someone or a group of people, 11:12 children or the people of God, 11:15 individuals that are connected to God... 11:17 Yeah, now this is an interesting question. 11:19 You're actually asking the ecclesiological question 11:21 of who is the church? 11:23 What is the church? 11:24 What does the church consist of? 11:25 What do the people of God consist of? 11:28 And I would argue that the people of God, 11:31 at one level, 11:32 are all those who are claiming to be the people of God. 11:37 That's the big tent, that's the largest definition. 11:39 Loose claim, just any... 11:40 The loose claim. 11:42 But then you start narrowing down to those 11:44 who are willing to obey God, 11:48 those who are willing to actually act 11:50 like God's people. 11:51 And then you're talking believer's church idea here 11:54 that the idea of those who respond to God's initiative 11:58 and are then accepting God's change and set. 12:03 So those who are acting like God's people 12:05 are God's people. 12:06 And that's a smaller tent. 12:08 So in the modern gospel dispensation, 12:11 can any group of people claim as a group to be God's people? 12:16 Well, not from the definition of actual believer's church, 12:20 those who are acting out, it's like... 12:23 Can any nation or should any nation 12:26 aspire to such a claim? 12:28 I don't think it's possible. 12:30 And this comes again 12:32 when Augustine wrote City of God. 12:34 He's trying to identify what the relationship 12:36 between God and Christian nations is, 12:39 and that relationship, 12:41 he puts in the predestination 12:47 genre of relationship. 12:48 Now it might sound like we're taking it so far away, 12:51 that we leave America naked, morally naked, 12:53 but that's not true, is it? 12:56 It can't be. 12:57 Any group of people, any nation that is, 13:00 in the main exemplified by seeking for God 13:03 and living according to His dictates 13:05 will come under His blessing. 13:07 Well, and you could argue. 13:08 And I hope that at different times, 13:11 and that is an aspirational point the United States 13:13 could fulfill that, 13:15 no more than any other country could. 13:17 Sure. 13:18 But it is not exclusive, it is not the only. 13:21 And the idea that, in Romans 13, 13:25 Paul is actually writing about 13:28 a system that is trying at some level, 13:31 and certainly in the future, 13:32 does attempt to wipe out Christianity. 13:35 Yeah. 13:36 So you're talking about God sets up kings, 13:40 God takes down kings from Daniel 2 through 4, 13:44 and you realize that God is not working 13:47 in absolutes here, He's working with humans. 13:51 Yeah, that makes things a little messy, doesn't it? 13:53 It certainly does. 13:55 And then as soon as you start identifying 13:56 who are the people of God, you're not talking about, 13:59 "Okay, so they are the people of God, 14:00 so whatever they do is right." 14:02 No, they are still humans. 14:03 And mistakes are going to be made, 14:05 problems will arise, 14:07 or selfishness comes into things. 14:10 This is the reality 14:11 that we find ourselves as humans 14:13 trying to cooperate with God. 14:14 And reality can be messy. 14:16 Let's take a short break now. 14:17 We'll be back to continue this interesting 14:19 and stimulating discussion. |
Revised 2019-03-11