Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is a program
bringing you news, views,
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discussion, and
up-to-date information
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on religious liberty in
the US and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest on the
program is Dr. John Reeve,
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Chair of the
Department of Church History
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at Andrews University in
Berrien Springs, Michigan.
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Welcome on the
program. Thank you.
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Good to be here
with you, Lincoln.
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I'm sure, I'm gonna
spring a few things on you,
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and I'm looking forward
to an interesting discussion.
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Feel free.
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You know,
recently, the United States
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has been involved
with what they now call
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preemptive wars.
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And not that it hasn't
done similar things in the past
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but now, it's the sort
of a philosophy behind it.
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And I know along the way,
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at least around
the year 2000, 2001,
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we heard talk of Just War Theory
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that you can trace back
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to Roman
Catholicism in the medieval era.
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What's your thought on that?
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Is this something legitimate
for a state to act on this
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and/or for Christians
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to sort of buy
into this concept?
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Well, the idea of
a Just War Theory,
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in a nutshell,
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has to do with whether or
not you are being attacked,
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and therefore need
to defend yourself.
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And so the aggressor
cannot be the just one
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in the standard Just War Theory.
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But behind the
Just War Theory...
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Well, you've
just disposed of Iraq.
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Right, well,
yeah. I know, I know.
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I was against the
Iraq war, but anyway,
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when you go to the
roots of the Just War Theory
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as expressed in Christianity,
you come up with Augustine.
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And Augustine is, put
a different twist on it.
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He argues the Just
War Theory has to do
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with whether or not you
are a chosen nation by God.
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So a Christian
nation chosen by God
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may even be the aggressor
and it's still be a Just War.
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So if you're in the
right according to God,
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then you can be the
aggressor and still be okay.
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So on that basis...
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You've brought it right
through to modern day America
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in the Christian
nation assumption.
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That's correct.
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The other thing that I
think is worth thinking about,
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on Just War,
there's a proportionality
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element introduced that
even countering an evil,
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you know, in
militarily opposing it,
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you wouldn't use
forces out of proportion
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to what you're trying to stop.
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And I think,
where we see that bleed
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through is the idea of
how much collateral damage
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is allowed even
in a bombing raid.
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And it seems to bother
the media in the West a lot
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if to get, say, half
a dozen ISIS fighters,
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you know, you kill 200 people
living in the neighborhood,
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which is missing a larger point,
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I think, of
violence and the danger
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and the evilness itself of war.
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Well, yes.
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And not only that,
but the reality is,
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there's this
tendency to make those
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that are living around
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or those that the ISIS
fighters are hiding among,
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to try to make
them other than us,
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trying to make
them bad guys, too.
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So when they are killed there,
well, yeah, they were killed
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but they were supporting ISIS,
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you know, and then
proofing they're supporting ISIS
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is ISIS is there.
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Yeah.
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This Just War
get into dehumanizing
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or othering the opponents?
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If the other is evil,
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then whatever you do
can be considered just.
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And that's a really,
really dangerous idea.
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Now what I'm trying
to throw in here is,
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Paul's often repeated and
as often misused statements
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about how the state
exercises the sword not in vain
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because they're
doing it on behalf of God.
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And that's true
to a large degree,
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but it's not necessarily
true when the State asks you
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to do something
contrary to God's principles
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or His directives.
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Well, and you're
referring to Romans 13,
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and in the context of Romans,
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Paul is really
trying to make the case
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that Christianity
does not make bad citizens.
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Christianity
makes good citizens.
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And at least that's
a part of Revelation...
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Of Romans 12 through 15.
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And in 13, the
arguments he's making there is,
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"We're going to
be the best citizens
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because we're going
to not only obey you
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because you're you,
we're gonna obey you
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because God put you there."
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We're going to obey you
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because the legitimate authority
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that you exercise as an
emperor is backed by God.
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Therefore, we will obey it
even if we disagree with it
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on the surface.
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But once you cross the line
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and order us to do
things that God insists
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on us not doing it,
we're gonna follow God.
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I sometimes, I hope facetiously,
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have said the Paul's comments,
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servile comments
because they can easily be used
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to encourage
civility of any group,
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particularly
Christians to, as in Paul's day.
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He lived under a very
abusive Roman administrations.
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Well, and in fact,
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he was killed by
Roman administration.
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And he would not argue
that God killed him therefore.
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There's a line
beyond which you do not go.
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And that is when you are called
to obey God rather than man,
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there's that
principle, but up to that point,
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you obey man as if he were God.
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And you hinted at it before,
Paul and many of his fellows,
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and of course,
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Paul himself before his
conversion would persecute.
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They were coming
under persecution.
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Correct. So he knew the dynamic.
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But he was persecuted...
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And I think, under threat,
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they were trying
to prove their loyalty
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to diminish the
very threat itself.
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Sure, sure.
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That's why I say
it's civility, I mean,
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we know what they
were trying to do.
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It's not so much
direct theological point
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is trying to convince
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the authorities
they're harmless,
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which they were
because they were not
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challenging the
authority of the state.
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And this argument goes
clear through the apologists
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of the second century.
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You take a look at Justin Martyr
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and his apology that he
wrote to the Emperor ostensibly.
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And there, he is
making the argument,
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"We're your best citizens,
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we not only obey
you, we pray for you.
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We pray for you daily,
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and we're honestly
wanting your good fortune,
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as it were."
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And he's not adverse
to putting his self up
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against in saying,
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"I'm willing to die for my faith
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because we call him
Justin Martyr for a reason."
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He was martyred just a few years
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after he wrote this thing.
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But he's arguing
that we will obey you
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as if you were God
because God set you up.
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At the same time,
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he's willing to
die for his faith,
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by that very...
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Let me throw out
two spin-offs from this.
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The first that is
a besetting problem
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for the US is this
Christian nation idea,
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American exceptionalism.
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And the other that
goes further back that,
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I think, it's creeping up on us
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is this whole idea of
the Divine Right of Kings.
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Their authority
comes directly from God,
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so don't question them.
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Well, and that
becomes a problem.
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If the idea is
that God has chosen you,
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then whatever you do is good
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or whatever you do
is the will of God.
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Then there's no
limits, there's no checks,
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there's no balances.
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There's no saying,
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"No, you have misunderstood
something about God,
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you have misunderstood something
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about freedom or religion.
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And there are limits
to how far you can go
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in a certain direction."
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But Divine Right of
Kings says there is no limits.
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Right.
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George Bush in his presidency,
he was in a good mood,
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and he wasn't
threatening anyone with it.
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But he made a statement
that sort of made my hair curl,
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what's left of it curl.
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And he said, "God
has blessed America.
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And He couldn't
or the United States,
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and He couldn't have
blessed more deserving people."
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It's not a blessing. It is a...
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A recognition.
Yeah, that's right.
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A confirmation.
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You know, that
really gets down to,
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I think, the problem that
we have in most religions.
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You have this quid pro
quo relationship with God.
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We do our part, then
you have to do your part.
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If we are behaving
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or we are
sacrificing the right thing
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or we are
saying the right words,
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then you have to come
through what you think.
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It's just the same relationship
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that Israel
wanted to have the Baal.
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We offer the
sacrifice, Baal sends the rain.
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Well, that's human nature
with all the gods of iron,
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and of clay, and
of wood, and so on.
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Yeah, it's really a
transaction to get something.
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But that's not quite the same
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as believing you are inherently,
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as Israel was
told, a holy nation.
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Right.
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And I do think that there's
been a lot of bleed-through
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to the United
States that I think...
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Not think, I know it
came from the Puritans.
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Right.
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And that's fine,
they were good ancestors,
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but we shouldn't pick up
a bad assumption they had.
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Well, they were schizophrenic
on what to do with the natives.
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You know, do we come
here and convert them
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because they're humans,
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or do we come
here and drive them out
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because we are Israel
and they are the Canaanites?
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So we have this
love-hate relationship.
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And so it's
slaughter them or convert them,
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and it goes back and forth,
back and forth for 150 years.
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Well, as you well know
and many of our viewers
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may or may not know,
00:10:18.18\00:10:20.82
Mormonism really has
taken that schizophrenia
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to a level that's just amazing.
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And they've made a historical...
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Better be careful.
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As a non
believer, I can say fiction.
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But anyhow, whole
historical scenario
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to justify the antipathy,
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if you like, between
the original inhabitants
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of this continent,
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and later Pseudo-Jewish settlers
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and that this
conflict was really the other
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against God's people.
00:10:50.78\00:10:52.11
Yeah, yeah.
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And then in the same vein
Manifest Destiny as a doctrine,
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in and of itself,
partakes of this idea,
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"We are the people of God,
we should rule the whole land,
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so we need to drive
out the inhabitants."
00:11:05.53\00:11:06.86
Right.
00:11:06.90\00:11:08.23
So let's just for a minute,
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what makes someone
or a group of people,
00:11:09.70\00:11:12.93
children or the people of God,
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individuals that
are connected to God...
00:11:15.80\00:11:17.51
Yeah, now this is an
interesting question.
00:11:17.54\00:11:19.57
You're actually asking
the ecclesiological question
00:11:19.61\00:11:21.64
of who is the church?
00:11:21.68\00:11:23.08
What is the church?
00:11:23.11\00:11:24.45
What does the church consist of?
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What do the
people of God consist of?
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And I would argue
that the people of God,
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at one level,
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are all those who are claiming
to be the people of God.
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That's the big tent,
that's the largest definition.
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Loose claim, just any...
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The loose claim.
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But then you start
narrowing down to those
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who are willing to obey God,
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those who are
willing to actually act
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like God's people.
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And then you're talking
believer's church idea here
00:11:51.61\00:11:54.11
that the idea of those who
respond to God's initiative
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and are then
accepting God's change and set.
00:11:58.48\00:12:03.02
So those who are
acting like God's people
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are God's people.
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And that's a smaller tent.
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So in the modern
gospel dispensation,
00:12:08.89\00:12:11.59
can any group of people claim
as a group to be God's people?
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Well, not from the definition
of actual believer's church,
00:12:16.97\00:12:20.57
those who are
acting out, it's like...
00:12:20.60\00:12:23.04
Can any nation
or should any nation
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aspire to such a claim?
00:12:26.54\00:12:28.28
I don't think it's possible.
00:12:28.31\00:12:30.71
And this comes again
00:12:30.75\00:12:32.55
when Augustine
wrote City of God.
00:12:32.58\00:12:34.48
He's trying to
identify what the relationship
00:12:34.52\00:12:36.55
between God and
Christian nations is,
00:12:36.58\00:12:39.85
and that relationship,
00:12:39.89\00:12:41.72
he puts in the predestination
00:12:41.76\00:12:47.03
genre of relationship.
00:12:47.06\00:12:48.93
Now it might sound like
we're taking it so far away,
00:12:48.96\00:12:51.17
that we leave
America naked, morally naked,
00:12:51.20\00:12:53.77
but that's not true, is it?
00:12:53.80\00:12:56.00
It can't be.
00:12:56.04\00:12:57.37
Any group of
people, any nation that is,
00:12:57.41\00:13:00.68
in the main
exemplified by seeking for God
00:13:00.71\00:13:03.88
and living
according to His dictates
00:13:03.91\00:13:05.48
will come under His blessing.
00:13:05.51\00:13:07.42
Well, and you could argue.
00:13:07.45\00:13:08.82
And I hope that
at different times,
00:13:08.85\00:13:11.45
and that is an aspirational
point the United States
00:13:11.49\00:13:13.66
could fulfill that,
00:13:13.69\00:13:15.32
no more than any
other country could.
00:13:15.36\00:13:17.36
Sure.
00:13:17.39\00:13:18.73
But it is not
exclusive, it is not the only.
00:13:18.76\00:13:21.86
And the idea that, in Romans 13,
00:13:21.90\00:13:25.50
Paul is actually writing about
00:13:25.53\00:13:28.64
a system that is
trying at some level,
00:13:28.67\00:13:31.44
and certainly in the future,
00:13:31.47\00:13:32.81
does attempt to
wipe out Christianity.
00:13:32.84\00:13:35.21
Yeah.
00:13:35.24\00:13:36.58
So you're talking
about God sets up kings,
00:13:36.61\00:13:40.08
God takes down kings
from Daniel 2 through 4,
00:13:40.12\00:13:44.45
and you realize
that God is not working
00:13:44.49\00:13:47.96
in absolutes here,
He's working with humans.
00:13:47.99\00:13:51.23
Yeah, that makes things
a little messy, doesn't it?
00:13:51.26\00:13:53.66
It certainly does.
00:13:53.70\00:13:55.03
And then as soon as
you start identifying
00:13:55.06\00:13:56.83
who are the people of
God, you're not talking about,
00:13:56.87\00:13:59.43
"Okay, so they
are the people of God,
00:13:59.47\00:14:00.80
so whatever they do is right."
00:14:00.84\00:14:02.17
No, they are still humans.
00:14:02.20\00:14:03.84
And mistakes are
going to be made,
00:14:03.87\00:14:05.71
problems will arise,
00:14:05.74\00:14:07.28
or selfishness
comes into things.
00:14:07.31\00:14:10.25
This is the reality
00:14:10.28\00:14:11.81
that we find ourselves as humans
00:14:11.85\00:14:13.48
trying to cooperate with God.
00:14:13.52\00:14:14.85
And reality can be messy.
00:14:14.88\00:14:16.25
Let's take a short break now.
00:14:16.28\00:14:17.85
We'll be back to
continue this interesting
00:14:17.89\00:14:19.69
and stimulating discussion.
00:14:19.72\00:14:21.06