Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI180420B
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00:04 Welcome back to Liberty Insider.
00:06 Before the break with my guest, 00:09 I've been talking about events that I know 00:13 you're very reticent to get into, 00:14 but you're the guest 00:16 and I'm going to put you under the grill. 00:17 But, you know, it begs the discussion, 00:20 what's happening in the Middle East. 00:22 And most recently with the US president 00:25 putting some tariffs on Turkey, 00:28 and then the Turkish economy tumbling, 00:30 there's something big happening in that area. 00:33 You and I, nobody else could really know exactly 00:36 where these secular events are happening. 00:38 But I think we've agreed from our previous discussion 00:41 that religion is at the center of everything. 00:45 And we've spoken about Pastor Brunson. 00:48 And in the break, 00:49 I reminded you of the Crimean War. 00:52 I just believe this is necessary to know 00:55 it as an antecedent to what's happening today. 00:59 Did you study the Korean War in school with the US? 01:02 No, I... 01:03 Crimean War. 01:05 No, I didn't, but you tell me what were the highlights 01:07 that you think? 01:09 I don't know definitively 01:11 whether it's in the history books in the US. 01:13 I studied history here, 01:15 but it was, you know, at college level. 01:18 I don't know 01:20 if it's in the grade school books, 01:21 but it's a very significant war. 01:22 The way you would get it here 01:24 would be Florence Nightingale, 01:26 you know, and the nurses, and so on. 01:28 It was during the Crimean War the Killing was so great, 01:32 and the deaths from injury were so great 01:34 that everybody sensed there was a need 01:37 for a formal nursing service, 01:40 and the idea of germs were just starting to catch on. 01:42 So it really was the beginning of a modern treatment 01:46 of the killing in wars. 01:48 But the Crimean War 01:49 started from a religious reason. 01:52 It was the biggest war before World War I. 01:55 It was very close to a world war 01:56 'cause it involved all the major powers. 01:59 And it started when Eastern Orthodox Russia 02:03 took great exception 02:05 to the Ottoman Turkish Empire mistreating. 02:08 They sent the Christian pilgrims to Jerusalem. 02:12 And so they threatened to go to war with them. 02:15 Now there were rivalries with the great powers, 02:17 and Catholic France had the same objection, 02:21 and we're ready to attack Turkey 02:24 for the same reason, but they were bothered 02:26 that the Eastern Orthodox Church was taking the lead. 02:30 Protestant England bothered the same reason. 02:32 So they all had religious objections, 02:35 and they were the three Christian nations 02:37 against Turkey. 02:39 But the three couldn't agree among themselves, 02:41 they were rivals, so it ended up 02:43 that France 02:45 and England allied themselves 02:52 against Russia in defense of Turkey. 02:57 And so this was called the Crimean War, 02:59 and why I think it's relevant, 03:00 one reason I think it's relevant. 03:01 We're still poking the Russian bear 03:05 because they retook Crimea. 03:08 But back then that was Russia. 03:10 And it was all fought on the Crimean Peninsula 03:13 to defeat Russia and keep them away from Turkey. 03:16 And if you look at the map, 03:17 Russia is just lurking slightly to the north of Turkey. 03:20 And even today their fleet based in 03:24 on the Crimean Peninsula 03:27 has to go through the Bosporus, 03:29 in other words, through downtown Istanbul 03:32 under the bridge to get out into the Mediterranean, 03:34 and out to sea. 03:36 So Turkey holds a choke point on Russia, 03:39 did then and does now. 03:42 And the war, like a lot of wars, 03:43 ended very inconclusively. 03:45 It really never shifted from the Crimean Peninsula. 03:48 There was some heavy battles fought there 03:49 including the infamous Charge of the Light Brigade, 03:53 you know, a death gallop, down a valley into the cannon. 03:57 It makes nice poetry, 03:59 but it's just stupid military exercise. 04:02 Right, and how do you see that the events 04:03 that took place then now impacting the conflict today? 04:06 Well, that explains why Crimea is so important to Russia 04:10 even today, it's strategically vital. 04:13 It explains why those same powers 04:16 have a vested interest in that part of the world. 04:18 It cuts through what we think now are just secular wars, 04:22 and explains this all about religion, 04:25 religious rivalries. 04:26 Of course, there's a sub text 04:28 or an overlay of common market 04:32 or European Union, economic interests, 04:35 and Russian hegemony, you name it, 04:37 but at the end of the day, 04:39 these are peoples with religious loyalties 04:41 that are bumping up against each other in my view. 04:44 And as we said before the break, Andrew Brunson, 04:48 you know, a little bit of the meat coated 04:49 in the sandwich. 04:51 And we can expect to see 04:53 more religious liberty challenges, I think. 04:55 Right, right. 04:57 And in terms of, you know, today, 05:00 you know, when you look at the Middle East, 05:02 you also see religious views sort of holding sway 05:06 and trying to bring about some sort of peace. 05:10 You have Christians on the one hand, 05:11 you have Jews, 05:13 and then you have the Muslims. 05:15 And they're all fighting over that small piece of land. 05:17 They're fighting every night. 05:19 I don't know which Christian groups 05:20 are pushing for peace 05:22 or which religious groups are pushing for peace? 05:23 Well, you know, in the sense that 05:26 they're fighting over this land, 05:27 and there's no ability to bring about peace 05:31 because everyone has, 05:33 you know, firm theological views 05:36 on whose land it is 05:37 and how the land should be divided. 05:39 And I think that, you know, prevents the parties 05:42 from coming together and resolving the conflict 05:44 in a peaceful manner. 05:46 Now you're a lawyer, 05:48 and I don't think your specialty 05:52 is real estate transactions. 05:55 It certainly isn't. No. 05:56 Okay. 05:57 But it seems to me a lot of that 05:59 is what's at stake in Jerusalem, 06:01 and the West Bank, and so on. 06:05 Because it's common for Israel, 06:06 for example, to take land from the Palestinians 06:11 either just because they want to expand an area 06:13 or as punishment which they stand... 06:16 It's a standard policy. 06:17 If a young kid throws a rocket or assaults you or whatever, 06:20 they will then destroy the family home 06:23 and appropriate the land. 06:25 But I know what makes that easy. 06:27 People don't have title to land in that area, 06:29 it's been in their home and their family. 06:32 So for so many generations, it's gone. 06:34 And who knows when they got it, 06:36 how they got it, but everyone in the village knows, 06:38 but you have a modern state as Israel most assuredly, 06:41 as it's, it's not a religious state, 06:43 it's a socialist secular state, and it has, 06:48 you know, a battle plan or a plan of enlargement. 06:51 So it doesn't recognize 06:52 just 'cause the neighbors say it's theirs. 06:54 You know, this is open land, we have sovereign rights to it, 06:57 but the great injustices are being done, 07:00 and the religious overlay of the country 07:03 is being affected in a great way. 07:07 So I don't know the answer, nobody does. 07:10 You know, we've had President Jimmy Carter, 07:14 you know, I got a few people to shake hands, 07:16 of course, every president since. 07:20 I can't say our present president 07:21 has really tested his middle yet. 07:23 If anything, he's sort of poked the nest of it 07:26 with designating Jerusalem. 07:28 But I think the real issue for us as Christians is, 07:31 you know, does the Bible have anything to say 07:34 about this conflict in particular. 07:35 And that's why I don't think, I'm not sure... 07:37 That's a central philosophical point. 07:38 I think an immediate interest for Christians is 07:41 we should be raising our voices for justice, 07:45 and not sinking back 07:48 into the mindset of the crusade, 07:50 where it's fine, you know, travel in the Holy Land, 07:53 let's raise our red flag, and ours, 07:55 you know, our cross banner. 07:57 No, I think we should be against injustice, 08:00 there's many of them. 08:01 People shouldn't be taken of their land, 08:04 Jews shouldn't be subjected to terrorism by the countries 08:08 that maintain the state of war, you know, that's multifaceted. 08:11 Right, but the point I was trying to make is 08:13 I think that many Christians 08:14 are using their interpretation of prophecy 08:19 to guide the policy in the Middle East. 08:21 Well, yeah, that's a good point. 08:23 That's where I was heading. I think that's proper matter. 08:24 That goes directly to recognizing Jerusalem, 08:26 there's all sorts of play there. 08:27 We can believe in end-time prophecy, 08:29 we can, you know, think that we know 08:32 how things are going to unfold. 08:34 But then the question is, 08:35 should we try to shape policy to fulfill our prophecy? 08:39 And I think I see little bit of that 08:41 taking place right now in the Middle East, 08:42 and I think that's unfortunate. 08:44 And it works an injustice for everyone involved. 08:46 Right, you know, 08:48 the Lord doesn't need help to... 08:51 His purposes areobscure in many ways. 08:54 And there are a number of people. 08:56 How many? 08:58 I can't say, 08:59 but they're more influential than their numbers, 09:01 that I'm certain of in the US that have an end-time scenario 09:03 that involves Israel, Armageddon, 09:05 you know, the secret rapture even, 09:08 and it's all has to come to a head for them, 09:10 and it may. 09:12 I'm not so sure the Bible, 09:14 you know, you can say in 09:15 from looking at the Bible prophecies 09:17 and Old Testament predictions that it won't, 09:19 but it's another thing to say, "Well, it's going to, 09:21 so I'm going to make it happen, 09:22 I'm going to manipulate events in an unjust way as well 09:26 to produce conflict, and out of that, 09:29 you know, my Lord will come." You know, that's... 09:33 Some of the Muslims have that view, 09:35 the Al Qaeda had that, they wanted chaos, 09:37 and out of chaos will come the caliphate. 09:40 So we need to be stay clear of precipitating war, 09:43 we should live at peace with all men, 09:44 we should seek justice for all people. 09:46 This is religious liberty, isn't it? 09:49 And to the degree 09:50 that the times are dangerous and volatile, 09:54 I think true Christians, and more than that, 09:56 true people of faith should be working for peace, harmony, 10:00 and looking at our fellow creatures 10:03 as people deserving of justice, and mercy, 10:05 and under God's favor as much as us. 10:08 Right, I think it's important that we not use 10:13 our religious beliefs 10:16 to diminish the humanity of others. 10:18 And unfortunately, from time to time, 10:20 we see that taking place in certain hotspots 10:23 around the world, the Middle East comes to mind, 10:26 Turkey comes to mind, 10:28 but ultimately we should remember 10:30 the humanity of all of those around us, 10:33 and, you know, 10:34 work to protect life, preserve life. 10:37 And I think that... 10:38 If we do that, 10:39 we are fulfilling the law of God. 10:44 Not too long ago, the US State Department 10:47 held his first ever ministerial for religious liberty 10:50 in Washington DC. 10:52 This was a landmark event 10:54 and occasion for religious liberty, 10:57 and the first. 10:59 Whatever else this administration has done 11:02 or appears to do 11:04 that might even threaten religious liberty, 11:06 this event was a step in the right direction. 11:09 And central to the discussions of the international leaders, 11:13 even some government ministers and religious group 11:16 from the United States, 11:18 central to their discussion was the case of Andrew Brunson, 11:22 a Christian missionary in Turkey, 11:25 who has been swept up in the conflicts 11:27 there witnessing to Kurds, 11:30 and accused of being a terrorist 11:32 with a possible 30 some year prison sentence. 11:35 As of this moment, 11:37 he's under house arrest facing a court action. 11:40 It is important to realize, in Turkey, 11:43 as in many other places in the world, 11:45 religion is at the intersection of world events, 11:48 and the pressure that is followed on Turkey 11:51 has been extreme, 11:52 they are resisting it, their economy is in freefall, 11:55 but religion is important no matter what the consequence. 12:00 And I encourage the State Department 12:03 to stand up for religion 12:05 is freely as they have in the past. 12:07 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2019-01-21