Welcome back to Liberty Insider.
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Before the break with my guest,
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I've been talking
about events that I know
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you're very
reticent to get into,
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but you're the guest
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and I'm going to
put you under the grill.
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But, you know, it
begs the discussion,
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what's happening
in the Middle East.
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And most recently
with the US president
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putting some tariffs on Turkey,
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and then the
Turkish economy tumbling,
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there's something big
happening in that area.
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You and I, nobody else
could really know exactly
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where these secular
events are happening.
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But I think we've agreed
from our previous discussion
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that religion is at
the center of everything.
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And we've spoken
about Pastor Brunson.
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And in the break,
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I reminded you
of the Crimean War.
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I just believe this
is necessary to know
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it as an antecedent to
what's happening today.
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Did you study the Korean
War in school with the US?
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No, I...
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Crimean War.
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No, I didn't, but you tell
me what were the highlights
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that you think?
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I don't know definitively
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whether it's in the
history books in the US.
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I studied history here,
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but it was, you
know, at college level.
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I don't know
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if it's in the
grade school books,
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but it's a very significant war.
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The way you would get it here
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would be Florence Nightingale,
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you know, and the
nurses, and so on.
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It was during the Crimean
War the Killing was so great,
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and the deaths from
injury were so great
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that everybody
sensed there was a need
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for a formal nursing service,
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and the idea of germs
were just starting to catch on.
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So it really was the
beginning of a modern treatment
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of the killing in wars.
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But the Crimean War
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started from a religious reason.
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It was the biggest
war before World War I.
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It was very close to a world war
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'cause it involved
all the major powers.
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And it started when
Eastern Orthodox Russia
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took great exception
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to the Ottoman
Turkish Empire mistreating.
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They sent the
Christian pilgrims to Jerusalem.
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And so they threatened
to go to war with them.
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Now there were
rivalries with the great powers,
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and Catholic France
had the same objection,
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and we're ready to attack Turkey
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for the same reason,
but they were bothered
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that the Eastern Orthodox
Church was taking the lead.
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Protestant England
bothered the same reason.
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So they all had
religious objections,
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and they were the
three Christian nations
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against Turkey.
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But the three couldn't
agree among themselves,
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they were rivals, so it ended up
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that France
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and England allied themselves
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against Russia in
defense of Turkey.
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And so this was
called the Crimean War,
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and why I think it's relevant,
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one reason I
think it's relevant.
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We're still
poking the Russian bear
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because they retook Crimea.
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But back then that was Russia.
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And it was all fought
on the Crimean Peninsula
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to defeat Russia and
keep them away from Turkey.
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And if you look at the map,
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Russia is just lurking
slightly to the north of Turkey.
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And even today
their fleet based in
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on the Crimean Peninsula
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has to go through the Bosporus,
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in other words,
through downtown Istanbul
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under the bridge to get
out into the Mediterranean,
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and out to sea.
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So Turkey holds a
choke point on Russia,
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did then and does now.
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And the war, like a lot of wars,
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ended very inconclusively.
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It really never shifted
from the Crimean Peninsula.
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There was some
heavy battles fought there
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including the infamous
Charge of the Light Brigade,
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you know, a death gallop,
down a valley into the cannon.
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It makes nice poetry,
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but it's just
stupid military exercise.
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Right, and how do
you see that the events
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that took place then now
impacting the conflict today?
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Well, that explains why
Crimea is so important to Russia
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even today, it's
strategically vital.
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It explains why
those same powers
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have a vested interest
in that part of the world.
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It cuts through what we
think now are just secular wars,
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and explains this
all about religion,
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religious rivalries.
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Of course, there's a sub text
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or an overlay of common market
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or European Union,
economic interests,
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and Russian
hegemony, you name it,
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but at the end of the day,
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these are peoples
with religious loyalties
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that are bumping up
against each other in my view.
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And as we said before
the break, Andrew Brunson,
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you know, a little
bit of the meat coated
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in the sandwich.
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And we can expect to see
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more religious
liberty challenges, I think.
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Right, right.
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And in terms
of, you know, today,
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you know, when you
look at the Middle East,
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you also see religious
views sort of holding sway
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and trying to bring
about some sort of peace.
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You have
Christians on the one hand,
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you have Jews,
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and then you have the Muslims.
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And they're all fighting
over that small piece of land.
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They're fighting every night.
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I don't know
which Christian groups
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are pushing for peace
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or which religious
groups are pushing for peace?
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Well, you know,
in the sense that
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they're fighting over this land,
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and there's no
ability to bring about peace
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because everyone has,
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you know, firm theological views
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on whose land it is
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and how the land
should be divided.
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And I think that, you
know, prevents the parties
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from coming together
and resolving the conflict
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in a peaceful manner.
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Now you're a lawyer,
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and I don't think your specialty
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is real estate transactions.
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It certainly isn't. No.
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Okay.
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But it seems to me a lot of that
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is what's at stake in Jerusalem,
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and the West Bank, and so on.
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Because it's common for Israel,
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for example, to take
land from the Palestinians
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either just because
they want to expand an area
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or as punishment
which they stand...
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It's a standard policy.
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If a young kid throws a rocket
or assaults you or whatever,
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they will then
destroy the family home
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and appropriate the land.
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But I know what makes that easy.
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People don't have
title to land in that area,
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it's been in their
home and their family.
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So for so many
generations, it's gone.
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And who knows when they got it,
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how they got it, but
everyone in the village knows,
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but you have a modern
state as Israel most assuredly,
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as it's, it's not
a religious state,
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it's a socialist
secular state, and it has,
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you know, a battle plan
or a plan of enlargement.
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So it doesn't recognize
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just 'cause the
neighbors say it's theirs.
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You know, this is open land,
we have sovereign rights to it,
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but the great
injustices are being done,
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and the religious
overlay of the country
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is being
affected in a great way.
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So I don't know the
answer, nobody does.
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You know, we've had
President Jimmy Carter,
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you know, I got a few
people to shake hands,
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of course,
every president since.
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I can't say our
present president
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has really
tested his middle yet.
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If anything, he's sort
of poked the nest of it
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with designating Jerusalem.
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But I think the real
issue for us as Christians is,
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you know, does the
Bible have anything to say
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about this
conflict in particular.
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And that's why I
don't think, I'm not sure...
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That's a central
philosophical point.
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I think an immediate
interest for Christians is
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we should be raising
our voices for justice,
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and not sinking back
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into the mindset of the crusade,
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where it's fine, you
know, travel in the Holy Land,
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let's raise our
red flag, and ours,
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you know, our cross banner.
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No, I think we
should be against injustice,
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there's many of them.
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People shouldn't be
taken of their land,
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Jews shouldn't be subjected
to terrorism by the countries
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that maintain the state of war,
you know, that's multifaceted.
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Right, but the point
I was trying to make is
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I think that many Christians
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are using their
interpretation of prophecy
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to guide the
policy in the Middle East.
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Well, yeah, that's a good point.
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That's where I was heading.
I think that's proper matter.
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That goes directly to
recognizing Jerusalem,
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there's all sorts of play there.
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We can believe in
end-time prophecy,
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we can, you know,
think that we know
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how things are going to unfold.
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But then the question is,
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should we try to shape
policy to fulfill our prophecy?
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And I think I see
little bit of that
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taking place right
now in the Middle East,
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and I think that's unfortunate.
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And it works an
injustice for everyone involved.
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Right, you know,
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the Lord doesn't need help to...
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His purposes
areobscure in many ways.
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And there are a
number of people.
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How many?
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I can't say,
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but they're more
influential than their numbers,
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that I'm certain of in the US
that have an end-time scenario
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that involves
Israel, Armageddon,
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you know, the
secret rapture even,
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and it's all has to
come to a head for them,
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and it may.
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I'm not so sure the Bible,
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you know, you can say in
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from looking at
the Bible prophecies
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and Old Testament
predictions that it won't,
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but it's another thing to
say, "Well, it's going to,
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so I'm going to make it happen,
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I'm going to manipulate
events in an unjust way as well
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to produce
conflict, and out of that,
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you know, my Lord will
come." You know, that's...
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Some of the
Muslims have that view,
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the Al Qaeda had
that, they wanted chaos,
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and out of chaos
will come the caliphate.
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So we need to be stay
clear of precipitating war,
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we should live at
peace with all men,
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we should seek
justice for all people.
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This is religious
liberty, isn't it?
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And to the degree
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that the times are
dangerous and volatile,
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I think true
Christians, and more than that,
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true people of faith should
be working for peace, harmony,
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and looking at
our fellow creatures
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as people deserving
of justice, and mercy,
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and under God's
favor as much as us.
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Right, I think it's
important that we not use
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our religious beliefs
00:10:13.27\00:10:15.98
to diminish the
humanity of others.
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And unfortunately,
from time to time,
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we see that taking
place in certain hotspots
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around the world, the
Middle East comes to mind,
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Turkey comes to mind,
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but ultimately
we should remember
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the humanity of
all of those around us,
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and, you know,
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work to protect
life, preserve life.
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And I think that...
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If we do that,
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we are
fulfilling the law of God.
00:10:39.83\00:10:41.60
Not too long ago,
the US State Department
00:10:44.81\00:10:47.08
held his first ever ministerial
for religious liberty
00:10:47.11\00:10:50.51
in Washington DC.
00:10:50.55\00:10:52.35
This was a landmark event
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and occasion for
religious liberty,
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and the first.
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Whatever else this
administration has done
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or appears to do
00:11:02.49\00:11:04.79
that might even
threaten religious liberty,
00:11:04.83\00:11:06.70
this event was a step
in the right direction.
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And central to the discussions
of the international leaders,
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even some government
ministers and religious group
00:11:13.47\00:11:16.77
from the United States,
00:11:16.81\00:11:18.14
central to their discussion
was the case of Andrew Brunson,
00:11:18.17\00:11:22.71
a Christian
missionary in Turkey,
00:11:22.74\00:11:25.81
who has been swept
up in the conflicts
00:11:25.85\00:11:27.88
there witnessing to Kurds,
00:11:27.92\00:11:30.49
and accused of being a terrorist
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with a possible 30
some year prison sentence.
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As of this moment,
00:11:35.32\00:11:37.03
he's under house
arrest facing a court action.
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It is important to
realize, in Turkey,
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as in many other
places in the world,
00:11:43.87\00:11:45.60
religion is at the
intersection of world events,
00:11:45.63\00:11:48.57
and the pressure
that is followed on Turkey
00:11:48.60\00:11:51.24
has been extreme,
00:11:51.27\00:11:52.77
they are resisting it,
their economy is in freefall,
00:11:52.81\00:11:55.78
but religion is important
no matter what the consequence.
00:11:55.81\00:12:00.92
And I encourage
the State Department
00:12:00.95\00:12:03.25
to stand up for religion
00:12:03.28\00:12:05.35
is freely as
they have in the past.
00:12:05.39\00:12:07.49
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:12:07.52\00:12:11.03