Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI180420A
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00:27 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:29 This is your program bringing you news, 00:31 views, updates, analysis, 00:33 and I hope interesting discussion 00:36 on religious liberty events in the US and around the world. 00:39 My name is Lincoln Steed, 00:40 and I'm editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:43 And by way of advertising, 00:44 I have to remind you that this is a magazine 00:46 that's been around for 100 years 00:48 dedicated to religious freedom for all 00:50 under the model of separation of church and state. 00:52 Please read it when you get a chance, 00:54 go online. 00:55 My guest on this program is John Ashmeade, 01:00 Attorney John Ashmeade, 01:03 Associate Director of the Public Affairs 01:05 of Religious Liberty Department for the Atlantic Union 01:08 of the Seventh-day Adventist church, 01:09 which is on the northeastern seaboard, 01:12 mostly of the US. 01:14 Let's talk about some current affairs 01:17 and what that might have a bearing on religious liberty. 01:22 I'm very interested in history, generally, 01:24 but particularly after going to Turkey a few years ago, 01:27 staying in Istanbul, 01:30 I used to more and more see that as a huge center 01:33 of some serious developments 01:35 that are affecting world geopolitics 01:38 and religious liberty. 01:40 And I know you're aware of a very important case 01:43 that our Religious Liberty Department 01:45 will be watching with a Christian missionary. 01:47 What's his name, Andrew... Andrew Bronson. 01:49 Andrew Brunson. What's his situation in Turkey? 01:52 So it seems like he went to Turkey as a missionary, 01:57 and he was working with the Kurds, 02:01 and seems to have run afoul of the government in Turkey, 02:05 and he's now... 02:07 He was arrested, imprisoned. 02:09 I think he's now home on house arrest, 02:11 but, you know certainly facing some serious time in prison. 02:14 And he's been charged with terrorism. 02:16 Yes. 02:17 It's not a minor charge with 37 years penalty. 02:19 Actually I'm surprised that it's not the firing squad. 02:21 They deal pretty rough with terrorists 02:23 in that part of the world. 02:25 Right, you know, it tells us, you know, 02:27 it can be a dangerous thing to be a missionary. 02:30 And, you know, the freedoms that we enjoy here 02:34 are not necessarily there 02:35 in many countries around the world. 02:37 Now my gut feeling, 02:38 and now there's not a lot of information 02:40 on what's going on with him. 02:42 It seems positive that he's gone to house arrest 02:46 rather than under strict detention, 02:48 but he still has to face the courts 02:50 and a sentencing. 02:52 But my gut feeling 02:54 is that he perhaps stumbled naively 02:58 as a Christian missionary to all people and being open. 03:00 He stumbled into the huge conflict 03:03 going on in Turkey between the Kurds 03:04 and their separatist ambitions, 03:07 and are more and more repressive, and Islamist. 03:12 I'm hesitating on Islamist 03:14 because it's not true to say that Erdogan, the president, 03:19 is, you know, he is no Osama Bin Laden, 03:22 but he wants to redefine Turkey from its Muslim societal based 03:28 rather than as Kimmel Ataturk, 03:31 the founder of Modern Turkey did. 03:32 He want to pull it away from that toward 03:34 a westernized state. 03:37 And so, I think Andrew Brunson sort of stumbled into it. 03:40 But Turkey takes this very seriously, 03:44 and it remains to be seen. 03:46 Has he just defended them 03:47 because of their internal struggle 03:49 or is he a proxy 03:50 for developing conflict with the West, 03:54 with NATO, which Turkey is a member, 03:56 and with the US led by Trump now 03:59 that seems intent on humbling Turkey. 04:02 And I don't really know what the end point is. 04:04 Yeah, it'll be interesting to see how this unfolds. 04:08 Certainly, the administration has taken an interest, 04:11 and they have imposed some sanctions 04:13 on a member of NATO. 04:16 And so we don't know 04:17 how this will ultimately play out, 04:20 but, you know, our primary concern 04:22 is for Pastor Brunson, 04:23 and wanting to see a resolution, 04:26 yeah, from a religious liberty point of view, 04:28 wanting to see a resolution that affirms religious liberty, 04:32 and, you know, missionary work 04:34 and, you know, people's ability to make choices on their own. 04:38 And what's swirling around Turkey is, 04:40 remember, next door in Syria 04:44 There's been really a civil war. 04:46 But a civil war with multiple parties, 04:48 not just two parties. 04:50 And the most pernicious group had been ISIS 04:54 or Daesh as they call them there. 04:58 But they're trying to establish an Islamic State in the Levant. 05:04 You've heard that term before, but most people haven't. 05:06 And what's Levant, 05:08 it's the coastal area in the Holy Land. 05:11 Isn't there a prophecy somewhere that talks about 05:14 the king of the north planting his pavilions 05:18 between the holy city and the sea? 05:20 I think there's a prophecy in the Book of Daniel. 05:22 And, you know, 05:24 it remains open to interpretation. 05:27 There are many views on that, you know, some view that 05:30 as a Christian entity planting, 05:34 you know, it's embassy of some sort in that area, 05:36 but, we, you know, time will tell. 05:39 And I'm not suggesting this is the fulfillment, 05:41 but I'm bringing up for people to think about, 05:43 the Levant is historically a very significant place 05:48 and prophetically, it's where it happens. 05:52 And so we've had a radical Islamic terrorist 05:56 insurgency operation operating there. 05:58 And ironically, 06:00 Turkey has supported them in some ways, 06:03 rather than support the Kurds who the US have depended on 06:07 to fight their battle as a proxy against... 06:11 And I'm bringing this all up because I think it just shows 06:14 the great religious conflicts of work. 06:17 The ISIS have persecuted the Yazidis, 06:21 as well as the Christians scattering to the four winds, 06:25 and as I remember few years ago 06:27 reading that there were 500,000 Christian refugees 06:30 in Jordan from Syria. 06:35 You know, first from a religious 06:37 liberty perspective, persecution of anyone 06:39 for their faith is reprehensible, 06:40 from our Christian perspective we need to understand 06:44 that an inordinate amount of Christians 06:46 in the Middle East 06:47 are being persecuted and driven out of that area. 06:50 And I think people refer to this 06:53 as historic Christianity. 06:55 And they have been displaced, they have been persecuted, 06:59 many Christian buildings and churches have been bombed 07:02 or, you know, destroyed. 07:04 And this is a very serious issue, 07:06 and, you know, I think it requires the world 07:09 to intervene in some way. 07:12 And that's not happened sufficiently. 07:15 Now it's one of the amazements to me of recent years 07:18 that with what other magazines have characterized 07:22 as the final expulsion of Christians 07:25 from the Middle East taking place. 07:27 Yes, the right aid groups have noticed this, 07:30 but internationally that doesn't seem 07:32 to be a hue and a cry 07:34 that we need to do something about this. 07:36 It's partly a mystery to me to be honest. 07:39 And, you know, that area was once, 07:41 you know, a center for Christianity 07:43 as was Africa, and... 07:44 And again, I mean, 07:46 Turkey is home to the churches of Revelation. 07:50 And, of course, that's right next door 07:52 to Syria, and then modern day Israel, 07:56 where, you know, 07:57 the Sea of Galilee, and Capernaum, 07:59 and all the haunts of Jesus, 08:02 and the events of the New Testament, 08:03 and then the Old Testament, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Damascus. 08:06 And Damascus is only about 30, 40 miles 08:10 from the border with Israel. 08:13 I've been there twice, 08:14 and it's still an amazement to me. 08:15 You can stand on the Golan Heights 08:18 looking down only a few miles, and it seems further down 08:23 than it is away to Capernaum. 08:25 You can see it there 08:26 at the northern edge of the Sea of Galilee, 08:29 and then you can look north. 08:32 And if the day is clear, 08:33 you can just see the outskirts of Damascus. 08:37 With all of the stuff on the TV news, 08:39 and that I think that escapes most people 08:41 how close this encounter is. 08:44 And, you know, thankfully at this point, 08:48 when the Russian planes zip over Syria, 08:52 and the Israeli playing zip 08:54 across the border to attack Syria, 08:55 and the US planes come on their bombing mission, 08:58 and as Putin even kindly acknowledged 09:00 wants the Australian planes there, 09:02 you know, where I'm from, they have air traffic control. 09:06 It's such a tight thing. 09:07 When I was in Israel, I remember seeing 09:09 an Israeli jet come zooming overhead. 09:11 And almost as soon as we... 09:12 We could see the flames out the back 09:14 from the afterburner. 09:15 As soon as he sped up, he had to go into a sharp turn 09:16 'cause he was on the border with Jordan. 09:20 Well, you know, it shows you that you have 09:22 a real small piece of land, 09:24 and, you know, a number of people 09:26 from different faiths and traditions 09:28 all clustered into that area. 09:29 And it certainly makes it difficult, 09:33 you know, if there is... 09:34 For them all to get along. 09:36 And to, you know, 09:38 live in harmony with one another. 09:40 That is a challenge. 09:41 And that's something that, you know, 09:44 we've got to take a real good look at. 09:46 Now, you know, the West has tried. 09:49 Well, the West just played the double role. 09:51 There's no question that on the medium term 09:55 they've probably caused a lot of the troubles, 09:57 not the US particularly. 09:59 I remember years and years ago, shortly after 9/11, 10:03 I sat next to, let's just call him 10:05 a highly committed Muslim activist on a plane. 10:10 And, you know, he was telling me, you know, 10:13 I question why they would even fly planes into buildings. 10:15 And he says, "Why not? 10:17 It's the only way we can get America." 10:19 And I said, "Well, it seems to me 10:21 that England has done more 10:23 to frustrate the Arab nationalist cause." 10:25 "Oh, he preluded that," he says. 10:27 He says, "We don't care about England, 10:29 it's America we want. 10:31 But in reality, you know, England laid the groundwork, 10:34 I think, with somewhat mixed, if not good intentions. 10:37 They had the Balfour Declaration 10:39 that established homeland for the leftover Jews 10:42 after the Holocaust 10:44 that offended the population in the area. 10:48 It didn't narrowly speaking 10:49 as start as a religious conflict. 10:51 But like many conflicts, once it started 10:54 religious loyalties and biases and all the rest 10:56 have kicked in big time in America. 11:00 So you're a good student of prophecy 11:02 Where is it setting? 11:04 Wow, that's really difficult to determine, 11:10 you know, when you look at prophecy, 11:13 and what our churches has taught, 11:17 we've tended to kind of shy away from, 11:20 you know, highlighting literal wars, 11:23 physical wars, and, you know, 11:25 sort of focused on more spiritual dimensions 11:29 of end-time conflicts. 11:31 And so it's difficult, you know, 11:33 some people think that, you know, 11:35 the issues at the end of time will be over 11:38 in the Middle East and in that area. 11:39 Others kind of disagree with that, so... 11:42 Well, you know, we're right on one thing, 11:44 and I think it needs to be emphasized, 11:45 always has been the case that you're not saved 11:49 by someone else or belonging to a group, 11:51 you're saved by your relationship to God 11:53 and your loyalty to Him. 11:54 And that cannot change. 11:57 But I'm quite convinced on my reading of prophecy 12:00 that there's a role. 12:01 Let's put it there. 12:02 There's a role for literal events 12:04 in that part of the world till the very end 12:06 because God's original people of the promise still exist. 12:11 An Ancestral for want of a better word, 12:13 hatreds or at least elemental hatreds 12:16 from forces inspired by Satan still to cause them grief. 12:20 So what we're seeing is a continuation 12:24 of what you read in the Old Testament 12:25 and the major amount of prophets 12:28 have backed one time, 12:29 it's Babylon and Syria coming up 12:31 and causing grief because people... 12:32 So we have to see more of the same 12:34 and how that cannot impact the religious dynamic, 12:38 even far afield even in the United States. 12:41 I mean, I think what prophecy teaches us 12:43 is that there will be conflicts. 12:45 There will be war. Wars and rumors of wars. 12:46 Rumors of war, right. 12:48 You know, as we get closer to the end of time, 12:51 there will be coalitions that develop. 12:55 And the focus however will shift to God's people. 12:59 And, you know, 13:00 the threat that they play or they hold to this end-time 13:05 coalition that's developing. 13:08 And yes, it's a good summary of what we've held. 13:11 Yes, so I guess we've got to be, 13:13 we've got to be careful I think of focusing 13:15 on individual, nations or locations. 13:19 I think we're dealing with more of a global struggle 13:22 rather than a location. 13:24 So you got in mind, you would probably agree with me 13:26 that it was not a positive move for the US 13:30 to finally acknowledge 13:34 the Jerusalem is the capital of newly reformulated Israel. 13:37 Well, it certainly wasn't positive for, 13:42 you know, the Palestinians, 13:45 you know, the evangelical community, 13:47 I'm sure it's happy with that 13:48 because they come from it from a different perspective 13:50 and they see part of that acknowledgement 13:53 is fulfilling end-time prophecy. 13:55 And so there you see the intersection 13:57 between religion and politics. 14:00 They're sort of strange bedfellows. 14:02 And that's what I really wanted to bring out. 14:03 Maybe we can discuss it a bit more after a short break. 14:07 So stay with us. 14:08 We're talking about current events, 14:10 not just prophecy and not just religion, 14:12 things that are happening now. |
Revised 2019-01-21