Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:00:27.79\00:00:29.59
This is your
program bringing you news,
00:00:29.62\00:00:31.73
views, updates, analysis,
00:00:31.76\00:00:33.86
and I hope
interesting discussion
00:00:33.90\00:00:36.00
on religious liberty events
in the US and around the world.
00:00:36.03\00:00:39.40
My name is Lincoln Steed,
00:00:39.43\00:00:40.84
and I'm editor
of Liberty Magazine.
00:00:40.87\00:00:43.00
And by way of advertising,
00:00:43.04\00:00:44.37
I have to remind you
that this is a magazine
00:00:44.41\00:00:46.41
that's been around for 100 years
00:00:46.44\00:00:48.48
dedicated to
religious freedom for all
00:00:48.51\00:00:50.28
under the model of
separation of church and state.
00:00:50.31\00:00:52.81
Please read it
when you get a chance,
00:00:52.85\00:00:54.48
go online.
00:00:54.52\00:00:55.85
My guest on this
program is John Ashmeade,
00:00:55.88\00:01:00.06
Attorney John Ashmeade,
00:01:00.09\00:01:03.43
Associate Director
of the Public Affairs
00:01:03.46\00:01:05.73
of Religious Liberty Department
for the Atlantic Union
00:01:05.76\00:01:08.26
of the
Seventh-day Adventist church,
00:01:08.30\00:01:09.73
which is on the
northeastern seaboard,
00:01:09.76\00:01:12.37
mostly of the US.
00:01:12.40\00:01:14.90
Let's talk about
some current affairs
00:01:14.94\00:01:17.14
and what that might have a
bearing on religious liberty.
00:01:17.17\00:01:22.31
I'm very interested
in history, generally,
00:01:22.34\00:01:24.45
but particularly after
going to Turkey a few years ago,
00:01:24.48\00:01:27.02
staying in Istanbul,
00:01:27.05\00:01:30.59
I used to more and more
see that as a huge center
00:01:30.62\00:01:33.56
of some serious developments
00:01:33.59\00:01:35.89
that are
affecting world geopolitics
00:01:35.92\00:01:38.06
and religious liberty.
00:01:38.09\00:01:40.26
And I know you're aware
of a very important case
00:01:40.30\00:01:43.77
that our
Religious Liberty Department
00:01:43.80\00:01:45.50
will be watching with
a Christian missionary.
00:01:45.53\00:01:47.67
What's his name,
Andrew... Andrew Bronson.
00:01:47.70\00:01:49.54
Andrew Brunson. What's
his situation in Turkey?
00:01:49.57\00:01:52.81
So it seems like he went
to Turkey as a missionary,
00:01:52.84\00:01:57.41
and he was
working with the Kurds,
00:01:57.45\00:02:00.98
and seems to have run afoul
of the government in Turkey,
00:02:01.02\00:02:05.62
and he's now...
00:02:05.65\00:02:07.46
He was arrested, imprisoned.
00:02:07.49\00:02:09.46
I think he's now
home on house arrest,
00:02:09.49\00:02:11.26
but, you know certainly facing
some serious time in prison.
00:02:11.29\00:02:14.60
And he's been
charged with terrorism.
00:02:14.63\00:02:15.96
Yes.
00:02:16.00\00:02:17.33
It's not a minor
charge with 37 years penalty.
00:02:17.37\00:02:19.47
Actually I'm surprised
that it's not the firing squad.
00:02:19.50\00:02:21.80
They deal pretty
rough with terrorists
00:02:21.84\00:02:23.94
in that part of the world.
00:02:23.97\00:02:25.31
Right, you know,
it tells us, you know,
00:02:25.34\00:02:27.58
it can be a dangerous
thing to be a missionary.
00:02:27.61\00:02:30.41
And, you know, the
freedoms that we enjoy here
00:02:30.45\00:02:34.52
are not necessarily there
00:02:34.55\00:02:35.88
in many
countries around the world.
00:02:35.92\00:02:37.52
Now my gut feeling,
00:02:37.55\00:02:38.92
and now there's not
a lot of information
00:02:38.95\00:02:40.72
on what's going on with him.
00:02:40.76\00:02:42.86
It seems positive that
he's gone to house arrest
00:02:42.89\00:02:46.23
rather than
under strict detention,
00:02:46.26\00:02:48.50
but he still has
to face the courts
00:02:48.53\00:02:50.57
and a sentencing.
00:02:50.60\00:02:52.20
But my gut feeling
00:02:52.23\00:02:54.77
is that he
perhaps stumbled naively
00:02:54.80\00:02:58.01
as a Christian missionary
to all people and being open.
00:02:58.04\00:03:00.44
He stumbled into
the huge conflict
00:03:00.48\00:03:03.04
going on in
Turkey between the Kurds
00:03:03.08\00:03:04.81
and their separatist ambitions,
00:03:04.85\00:03:06.98
and are more and more
repressive, and Islamist.
00:03:07.02\00:03:12.92
I'm hesitating on Islamist
00:03:12.95\00:03:14.29
because it's not true to
say that Erdogan, the president,
00:03:14.32\00:03:19.73
is, you know, he
is no Osama Bin Laden,
00:03:19.76\00:03:22.66
but he wants to redefine Turkey
from its Muslim societal based
00:03:22.70\00:03:28.57
rather than as Kimmel Ataturk,
00:03:28.60\00:03:31.01
the founder of
Modern Turkey did.
00:03:31.04\00:03:32.37
He want to pull it
away from that toward
00:03:32.41\00:03:34.51
a westernized state.
00:03:34.54\00:03:37.05
And so, I think Andrew Brunson
sort of stumbled into it.
00:03:37.08\00:03:40.88
But Turkey takes
this very seriously,
00:03:40.92\00:03:44.55
and it remains to be seen.
00:03:44.59\00:03:46.55
Has he just defended them
00:03:46.59\00:03:47.92
because of their
internal struggle
00:03:47.96\00:03:49.29
or is he a proxy
00:03:49.32\00:03:50.79
for developing
conflict with the West,
00:03:50.83\00:03:54.10
with NATO, which
Turkey is a member,
00:03:54.13\00:03:56.50
and with the US led by Trump now
00:03:56.53\00:03:59.87
that seems intent
on humbling Turkey.
00:03:59.90\00:04:02.00
And I don't really
know what the end point is.
00:04:02.04\00:04:04.74
Yeah, it'll be interesting
to see how this unfolds.
00:04:04.77\00:04:08.21
Certainly, the administration
has taken an interest,
00:04:08.24\00:04:11.61
and they have
imposed some sanctions
00:04:11.65\00:04:13.42
on a member of NATO.
00:04:13.45\00:04:16.22
And so we don't know
00:04:16.25\00:04:17.72
how this will
ultimately play out,
00:04:17.75\00:04:20.86
but, you know,
our primary concern
00:04:20.89\00:04:22.52
is for Pastor Brunson,
00:04:22.56\00:04:23.89
and wanting to see a resolution,
00:04:23.93\00:04:26.70
yeah, from a
religious liberty point of view,
00:04:26.73\00:04:28.60
wanting to see a resolution
that affirms religious liberty,
00:04:28.63\00:04:32.93
and, you know, missionary work
00:04:32.97\00:04:34.57
and, you know, people's ability
to make choices on their own.
00:04:34.60\00:04:37.97
And what's
swirling around Turkey is,
00:04:38.01\00:04:40.01
remember, next door in Syria
00:04:40.04\00:04:44.35
There's been really a civil war.
00:04:44.38\00:04:46.85
But a civil war
with multiple parties,
00:04:46.88\00:04:48.62
not just two parties.
00:04:48.65\00:04:50.52
And the most
pernicious group had been ISIS
00:04:50.55\00:04:54.16
or Daesh as
they call them there.
00:04:54.19\00:04:58.43
But they're trying to establish
an Islamic State in the Levant.
00:04:58.46\00:05:04.13
You've heard that term
before, but most people haven't.
00:05:04.17\00:05:06.80
And what's Levant,
00:05:06.84\00:05:08.17
it's the coastal
area in the Holy Land.
00:05:08.20\00:05:11.34
Isn't there a prophecy
somewhere that talks about
00:05:11.37\00:05:14.41
the king of the north
planting his pavilions
00:05:14.44\00:05:18.21
between the holy
city and the sea?
00:05:18.25\00:05:20.15
I think there's a
prophecy in the Book of Daniel.
00:05:20.18\00:05:22.28
And, you know,
00:05:22.32\00:05:24.12
it remains open
to interpretation.
00:05:24.15\00:05:27.39
There are many views on
that, you know, some view that
00:05:27.42\00:05:30.93
as a Christian entity planting,
00:05:30.96\00:05:34.50
you know, it's embassy
of some sort in that area,
00:05:34.53\00:05:36.87
but, we, you
know, time will tell.
00:05:36.90\00:05:39.30
And I'm not suggesting
this is the fulfillment,
00:05:39.33\00:05:41.04
but I'm bringing up
for people to think about,
00:05:41.07\00:05:43.71
the Levant is historically
a very significant place
00:05:43.74\00:05:47.98
and prophetically,
it's where it happens.
00:05:48.01\00:05:52.11
And so we've had a
radical Islamic terrorist
00:05:52.15\00:05:56.28
insurgency
operation operating there.
00:05:56.32\00:05:58.95
And ironically,
00:05:58.99\00:06:00.32
Turkey has
supported them in some ways,
00:06:00.36\00:06:03.22
rather than support the Kurds
who the US have depended on
00:06:03.26\00:06:07.36
to fight their
battle as a proxy against...
00:06:07.40\00:06:11.77
And I'm bringing this all up
because I think it just shows
00:06:11.80\00:06:14.07
the great
religious conflicts of work.
00:06:14.10\00:06:17.27
The ISIS have
persecuted the Yazidis,
00:06:17.31\00:06:21.24
as well as the Christians
scattering to the four winds,
00:06:21.28\00:06:25.05
and as I remember few years ago
00:06:25.08\00:06:27.42
reading that there were
500,000 Christian refugees
00:06:27.45\00:06:30.49
in Jordan from Syria.
00:06:30.52\00:06:35.62
You know, first from a religious
00:06:35.66\00:06:37.26
liberty perspective,
persecution of anyone
00:06:37.29\00:06:39.26
for their faith
is reprehensible,
00:06:39.29\00:06:40.86
from our Christian perspective
we need to understand
00:06:40.90\00:06:44.33
that an inordinate
amount of Christians
00:06:44.37\00:06:46.33
in the Middle East
00:06:46.37\00:06:47.70
are being persecuted
and driven out of that area.
00:06:47.74\00:06:50.91
And I think people refer to this
00:06:50.94\00:06:52.97
as historic Christianity.
00:06:53.01\00:06:54.98
And they have been displaced,
they have been persecuted,
00:06:55.01\00:06:59.31
many Christian buildings
and churches have been bombed
00:06:59.35\00:07:02.38
or, you know, destroyed.
00:07:02.42\00:07:04.35
And this is a
very serious issue,
00:07:04.39\00:07:06.89
and, you know, I
think it requires the world
00:07:06.92\00:07:09.89
to intervene in some way.
00:07:09.92\00:07:12.49
And that's not
happened sufficiently.
00:07:12.53\00:07:15.40
Now it's one of the
amazements to me of recent years
00:07:15.43\00:07:18.73
that with what other
magazines have characterized
00:07:18.77\00:07:22.77
as the final
expulsion of Christians
00:07:22.80\00:07:25.14
from the Middle
East taking place.
00:07:25.17\00:07:27.78
Yes, the right aid
groups have noticed this,
00:07:27.81\00:07:30.91
but internationally
that doesn't seem
00:07:30.95\00:07:32.71
to be a hue and a cry
00:07:32.75\00:07:34.08
that we need to do
something about this.
00:07:34.12\00:07:36.72
It's partly a
mystery to me to be honest.
00:07:36.75\00:07:39.25
And, you know,
that area was once,
00:07:39.29\00:07:41.62
you know, a
center for Christianity
00:07:41.66\00:07:43.32
as was Africa, and...
00:07:43.36\00:07:44.73
And again, I mean,
00:07:44.76\00:07:46.09
Turkey is home to the
churches of Revelation.
00:07:46.13\00:07:50.77
And, of course,
that's right next door
00:07:50.80\00:07:52.83
to Syria, and
then modern day Israel,
00:07:52.87\00:07:56.20
where, you know,
00:07:56.24\00:07:57.71
the Sea of
Galilee, and Capernaum,
00:07:57.74\00:07:59.87
and all the haunts of Jesus,
00:07:59.91\00:08:02.18
and the events of
the New Testament,
00:08:02.21\00:08:03.78
and then the Old Testament,
Iraq, Iran, Syria, Damascus.
00:08:03.81\00:08:06.85
And Damascus is
only about 30, 40 miles
00:08:06.88\00:08:10.29
from the border with Israel.
00:08:10.32\00:08:13.15
I've been there twice,
00:08:13.19\00:08:14.52
and it's still
an amazement to me.
00:08:14.56\00:08:15.89
You can stand on
the Golan Heights
00:08:15.92\00:08:18.16
looking down only a few
miles, and it seems further down
00:08:18.19\00:08:23.53
than it is away to Capernaum.
00:08:23.57\00:08:25.07
You can see it there
00:08:25.10\00:08:26.43
at the northern edge
of the Sea of Galilee,
00:08:26.47\00:08:29.40
and then you can look north.
00:08:29.44\00:08:32.44
And if the day is clear,
00:08:32.47\00:08:33.81
you can just see the
outskirts of Damascus.
00:08:33.84\00:08:37.85
With all of the
stuff on the TV news,
00:08:37.88\00:08:39.48
and that I think
that escapes most people
00:08:39.51\00:08:41.08
how close this encounter is.
00:08:41.12\00:08:44.62
And, you know,
thankfully at this point,
00:08:44.65\00:08:48.02
when the Russian
planes zip over Syria,
00:08:48.06\00:08:52.86
and the Israeli playing zip
00:08:52.89\00:08:54.23
across the
border to attack Syria,
00:08:54.26\00:08:55.63
and the US planes come
on their bombing mission,
00:08:55.66\00:08:58.10
and as Putin even
kindly acknowledged
00:08:58.13\00:09:00.27
wants the
Australian planes there,
00:09:00.30\00:09:02.34
you know, where I'm from,
they have air traffic control.
00:09:02.37\00:09:06.51
It's such a tight thing.
00:09:06.54\00:09:07.88
When I was in
Israel, I remember seeing
00:09:07.91\00:09:09.51
an Israeli jet
come zooming overhead.
00:09:09.54\00:09:11.28
And almost as soon as we...
00:09:11.31\00:09:12.68
We could see the
flames out the back
00:09:12.71\00:09:14.05
from the afterburner.
00:09:14.08\00:09:15.42
As soon as he sped up, he
had to go into a sharp turn
00:09:15.45\00:09:16.92
'cause he was on
the border with Jordan.
00:09:16.95\00:09:20.22
Well, you know, it
shows you that you have
00:09:20.26\00:09:22.16
a real small piece of land,
00:09:22.19\00:09:24.49
and, you know,
a number of people
00:09:24.53\00:09:26.59
from different
faiths and traditions
00:09:26.63\00:09:28.30
all clustered into that area.
00:09:28.33\00:09:29.90
And it certainly
makes it difficult,
00:09:29.93\00:09:33.10
you know, if there is...
00:09:33.13\00:09:34.47
For them all to get along.
00:09:34.50\00:09:36.44
And to, you know,
00:09:36.47\00:09:38.27
live in harmony
with one another.
00:09:38.31\00:09:40.38
That is a challenge.
00:09:40.41\00:09:41.74
And that's
something that, you know,
00:09:41.78\00:09:44.01
we've got to take
a real good look at.
00:09:44.05\00:09:46.38
Now, you know,
the West has tried.
00:09:46.41\00:09:49.88
Well, the West just
played the double role.
00:09:49.92\00:09:51.65
There's no question
that on the medium term
00:09:51.69\00:09:55.09
they've probably
caused a lot of the troubles,
00:09:55.12\00:09:57.63
not the US particularly.
00:09:57.66\00:09:59.56
I remember years and
years ago, shortly after 9/11,
00:09:59.59\00:10:03.20
I sat next to,
let's just call him
00:10:03.23\00:10:05.57
a highly committed
Muslim activist on a plane.
00:10:05.60\00:10:10.21
And, you know, he
was telling me, you know,
00:10:10.24\00:10:13.07
I question why they would
even fly planes into buildings.
00:10:13.11\00:10:15.78
And he says, "Why not?
00:10:15.81\00:10:17.38
It's the only way
we can get America."
00:10:17.41\00:10:19.51
And I said,
"Well, it seems to me
00:10:19.55\00:10:21.68
that England has done more
00:10:21.72\00:10:23.05
to frustrate the
Arab nationalist cause."
00:10:23.08\00:10:25.65
"Oh, he preluded that," he says.
00:10:25.69\00:10:27.89
He says, "We don't
care about England,
00:10:27.92\00:10:29.56
it's America we want.
00:10:29.59\00:10:31.49
But in reality, you know,
England laid the groundwork,
00:10:31.53\00:10:34.56
I think, with somewhat
mixed, if not good intentions.
00:10:34.60\00:10:37.63
They had the Balfour Declaration
00:10:37.67\00:10:39.10
that established
homeland for the leftover Jews
00:10:39.13\00:10:42.60
after the Holocaust
00:10:42.64\00:10:44.77
that offended the
population in the area.
00:10:44.81\00:10:48.24
It didn't narrowly speaking
00:10:48.28\00:10:49.78
as start as a
religious conflict.
00:10:49.81\00:10:51.61
But like many
conflicts, once it started
00:10:51.65\00:10:54.38
religious loyalties
and biases and all the rest
00:10:54.42\00:10:56.85
have kicked in
big time in America.
00:10:56.89\00:11:00.56
So you're a good
student of prophecy
00:11:00.59\00:11:02.69
Where is it setting?
00:11:02.72\00:11:04.89
Wow, that's really
difficult to determine,
00:11:04.93\00:11:10.47
you know, when
you look at prophecy,
00:11:10.50\00:11:13.94
and what our
churches has taught,
00:11:13.97\00:11:17.21
we've tended to
kind of shy away from,
00:11:17.24\00:11:20.48
you know,
highlighting literal wars,
00:11:20.51\00:11:23.11
physical wars, and, you know,
00:11:23.14\00:11:25.35
sort of focused on
more spiritual dimensions
00:11:25.38\00:11:29.32
of end-time conflicts.
00:11:29.35\00:11:30.99
And so it's difficult, you know,
00:11:31.02\00:11:33.02
some people
think that, you know,
00:11:33.05\00:11:35.56
the issues at the
end of time will be over
00:11:35.59\00:11:38.06
in the Middle
East and in that area.
00:11:38.09\00:11:39.76
Others kind of
disagree with that, so...
00:11:39.79\00:11:42.60
Well, you know,
we're right on one thing,
00:11:42.63\00:11:44.00
and I think it
needs to be emphasized,
00:11:44.03\00:11:45.47
always has been the
case that you're not saved
00:11:45.50\00:11:49.57
by someone else or
belonging to a group,
00:11:49.60\00:11:51.64
you're saved by
your relationship to God
00:11:51.67\00:11:53.34
and your loyalty to Him.
00:11:53.38\00:11:54.78
And that cannot change.
00:11:54.81\00:11:57.08
But I'm quite convinced
on my reading of prophecy
00:11:57.11\00:11:59.98
that there's a role.
00:12:00.02\00:12:01.35
Let's put it there.
00:12:01.38\00:12:02.72
There's a role
for literal events
00:12:02.75\00:12:04.72
in that part of the
world till the very end
00:12:04.75\00:12:06.55
because God's original people
of the promise still exist.
00:12:06.59\00:12:11.06
An Ancestral for
want of a better word,
00:12:11.09\00:12:13.90
hatreds or at
least elemental hatreds
00:12:13.93\00:12:16.43
from forces inspired by
Satan still to cause them grief.
00:12:16.46\00:12:20.64
So what we're
seeing is a continuation
00:12:20.67\00:12:24.31
of what you read
in the Old Testament
00:12:24.34\00:12:25.74
and the major amount of prophets
00:12:25.77\00:12:27.98
have backed one time,
00:12:28.01\00:12:29.34
it's Babylon and Syria coming up
00:12:29.38\00:12:31.21
and causing
grief because people...
00:12:31.25\00:12:32.91
So we have to
see more of the same
00:12:32.95\00:12:34.68
and how that cannot
impact the religious dynamic,
00:12:34.72\00:12:38.49
even far afield even
in the United States.
00:12:38.52\00:12:41.39
I mean, I think
what prophecy teaches us
00:12:41.42\00:12:43.86
is that there will be conflicts.
00:12:43.89\00:12:45.23
There will be war.
Wars and rumors of wars.
00:12:45.26\00:12:46.59
Rumors of war, right.
00:12:46.63\00:12:48.36
You know, as we get
closer to the end of time,
00:12:48.40\00:12:51.43
there will be
coalitions that develop.
00:12:51.47\00:12:55.07
And the focus however
will shift to God's people.
00:12:55.10\00:12:59.47
And, you know,
00:12:59.51\00:13:00.84
the threat that they play
or they hold to this end-time
00:13:00.88\00:13:05.85
coalition that's developing.
00:13:05.88\00:13:08.05
And yes, it's a good
summary of what we've held.
00:13:08.08\00:13:11.85
Yes, so I guess we've got to be,
00:13:11.89\00:13:13.22
we've got to be
careful I think of focusing
00:13:13.25\00:13:15.46
on individual,
nations or locations.
00:13:15.49\00:13:19.23
I think we're dealing
with more of a global struggle
00:13:19.26\00:13:22.56
rather than a location.
00:13:22.60\00:13:24.07
So you got in mind, you
would probably agree with me
00:13:24.10\00:13:26.94
that it was not a
positive move for the US
00:13:26.97\00:13:30.84
to finally acknowledge
00:13:30.87\00:13:34.04
the Jerusalem is the capital
of newly reformulated Israel.
00:13:34.08\00:13:37.75
Well, it certainly
wasn't positive for,
00:13:37.78\00:13:42.58
you know, the Palestinians,
00:13:42.62\00:13:44.99
you know, the
evangelical community,
00:13:45.02\00:13:47.06
I'm sure it's happy with that
00:13:47.09\00:13:48.42
because they come from it
from a different perspective
00:13:48.46\00:13:50.63
and they see part
of that acknowledgement
00:13:50.66\00:13:53.36
is fulfilling end-time prophecy.
00:13:53.40\00:13:55.50
And so there you
see the intersection
00:13:55.53\00:13:57.27
between religion and politics.
00:13:57.30\00:14:00.10
They're sort of
strange bedfellows.
00:14:00.14\00:14:02.30
And that's what I
really wanted to bring out.
00:14:02.34\00:14:03.81
Maybe we can discuss it a
bit more after a short break.
00:14:03.84\00:14:06.98
So stay with us.
00:14:07.01\00:14:08.54
We're talking
about current events,
00:14:08.58\00:14:10.65
not just prophecy
and not just religion,
00:14:10.68\00:14:12.55
things that are happening now.
00:14:12.58\00:14:14.38